(no subject)

[trinityvixen]

I love how when the only man coming to writing group is delayed, the ladies all set to talking about bra shopping. It makes me glad to hear (and sad, too, of course) that it is a universally trying process. No matter your cup size or circumference about the chest, there's always something that makes it impossible to buy bras at one point or the other. I'm not saying that we should be glad of this, but it's nice to know that women are as unique as I like to think we all are.

It also occurred to me in our discussion of prices that it's not fair there's not similiarly expensive must-have for men. I suppose a sports cup comes close, but not really. Makes me think of this presentation we saw in health class in high school about gender equality. Made me think of subconscious ways in which the gender war has gone in the era of political correctness. Yes, we should be damned worried about the overturning of Roe v. Wade, but there are still other, less obvious deficiencies that need looking after. One of them is the bra, oddly enough, more specifically the Wonder-bra. The presentation in health class I saw proposed we institute the "wonder-jock," a device to make a man's package more prominent in the way the wonder-bra enhanced smaller bust lines and put larger ones just that much more out there.

I think there was a proto-feminist rant in there somewhere, but I haven't the energy to keep it going.

Comments

[arcane-the-sage.livejournal.com]

It also occurred to me in our discussion of prices that it's not fair there's not similiarly expensive must-have for men.

In all fairness, as I learned from several of my female friends, the total cost of wardrobe is a bit higher for men than for women. I saw this first hand when a friend bought a week's worth of business attire for under $200 (when the male equivalent in the mens version of the same shop was easily in the $300+ range). Now as for the reasons for this, I'm not exactly sure. Are there more options for ladies? Are guys just more likely to go "Just give me one of those in size..."? I don't know. I've just seen that clothing options for males tend to be a bit pricier.

[ivy03.livejournal.com]

there's not similiarly expensive must-have for men.

Um...ties? I'm glad I don't have to drop money for ridiculously patterned strips of silk to wrap around my neck.

Oh, I guess that's sort of like women's scarves. Well, I've never worn those.

[earthrise.livejournal.com]

I want to know where your friends shop, because the trend you've stated is far from universal (I have two brothers, so my sample size is the same, but the conclusion is entirely opposite).

[chuckro.livejournal.com]

The presentation in health class I saw proposed we institute the "wonder-jock,"

They exist. Best illustrated by the illustrious Mr. Milholland:
http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp01212003.shtml

[i-am-rachiv.livejournal.com]

Gah. I'm going to have to regretfully agree with you about how unfair it is that bras cost about $50 a pop, and you need, well, like $50 of them. Where is the equivalent undergarment staple for guys?!?!?

However, on your stance on abortion-- me and my mangled fetus older sibling are hurt, Dayle. There do exist some situtations where it is just categorically wrong. Does that merit overturning Roe V. Wade- not those sitations alone. But, I'd hope that you concede, on some level, that abortion can be wrong.

[bigscary.livejournal.com]

I want to know where your MALE friends shop. I have trouble getting a SINGLE suitable suit+shirt+tie for <400.

But we do have it easier. We can cycle more tightly, due to ease of mix-match (and it's even easier if you don't need a True Suit).

[arcane-the-sage.livejournal.com]

Notice I said $300+. If you have a car and don't mind the 1 1/2 - 2 hour drive, there are a couple of good outlet places out on the island that you can pick up a good suit on sale for around $300. Plus also you can sometimes find some good deals at places like Men's Warehouse.

[arcane-the-sage.livejournal.com]

The times I have witnessed it first hand was at various malls (both in the city and 2 1/2 hours upstate).

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

I am going to shout out my ignorance right here:

Who the hell pays $300 for a suit? I used to work at Dress Barn, and we had suits for $100-150 when we had our suit sale, $200 at most. I think there's a question of how much people are expecting to pay and for what quality they're talking about.

As for suits, generally I think women get the better deal even if they don't get the better price because most suits come with skirt and pants (again, all based off of a summer in a clothing store), so they have more mix and match options, but as far as re-usal goes, men win. Women have to have more variety from jacket to shoes than men do. Women have to change lots of things to appear different; men seem to just be able to change a shirt or tie.

I think we need to move to Hawaii where the dress code is "Hawaiian shirts" all the time, men and women.

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but ties aren't required wear all the time. Bras, especially for the busty members of the daughters of Venus, are.

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

If we want to get into this, sure, I'll say there are plenty of instances where I find it reprehensible. Anyone who thinks an abortion is an acceptable method of birth control needs to have their right to have a uterus revoked. This is not an easy choice, and to abuse this right that way is both disgusting and totally unnecessary. I would say that it's absolutely necessary in cases of jeopardized health to the mother (most people can agree upon that) and should be discussed with all women who find themselves pregnant for causes that were against their will--rape or incest. I know most religious folk would say that it's making the hurt that much worse to damn a woman's soul for aborting a baby after she's been raped, but I don't believe that, the woman in question might not, and so we're not allowed to tell her what to do to make herself whole again. Imagining rape is bad enough, imagining having to carry the burden of baby forced upon you by a man who tore your soul to pieces is enough to make me contemplate another sin: suicide.

Really, if you want to stem the tide of abortions, you have to agree to teach better contraceptive methods than 'waiting,' 'loving someone enough,' or withdrawal/rhythm method. For one, none of these are terribly realistic, though admirably hopeful. For two, non-barrier methods of sexual protection aren't protecting anything. You can still get disease and spread it without condoms et al. So, safer sex education, emphasizing respect for your partner in ALL its forms--agreeing to wait if you or they are not ready, protecting yourself and them through monogamy and safer sex--is really the way to go. Like so many things, abortion would be a less explosive, divisive issue if people could agree to work at solving the problem through education before there's a stupid decision made versus punishing the mistake-maker with legislation.

[chuckro.livejournal.com]

Well, then what can be done about it? Start a company importing cheap bras from China?

I'm no expert, but it seems that the standard, white, boring bras are only marginally more expensive than standard, white, boring underware. Why not encourage the tighty-whity-bra market?

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

::laughs::

The boring bras don't have much support. The thing about them is women do, for the most part, need them (especially while excercising--ouch!). Tighty-whitey bras are sports bras and because they have support they're more expensive. Go figure.

[i-am-rachiv.livejournal.com]

Check, check, check, check, check, and check. I only disagree with you on the efficacy of education... I am 100% for safe-sex education in schools, but sadly, I really doubt it's efficacy in preventing unwanted pregnancies. People are stupid animals and will satisfy their fucking needs in the heat of the moment. Classic teen pregnancy sob story. Edumacation goes straight out the window as soon as blood rushes to their genitals. Of course, a decent amount of kids do lear. But I think unwanted pregnancy is largely the folly of human nature.

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

I agree with you on that, actually. Education will do wonders, I say, but it won't be perfect.

You know what would really work? Making men responsible for children they father. If every guy who got a girl pregnant were forced to raise his child, we'd see a few of them reconsider the consequences. This is part of my larger rant in general about men determining issues related to pregnancy. If men could get pregnant, we wouldn't have a one of them screeching about how it's murder and not right (okay, we'd have a few, but a LOT less than we do now). But reproductive rights/concerns are woman's Achilles heel, and as out-and-out discrimination based on gender falls out of favor, there are more underhanded means employed to keep us sisters enshackled.

Does that mean the girls getting pregnant weren't stupid and horny? No. Do I still think the unwanted pregnancy debacle is part of sexual subterfuge and the war of the sexes? I'm going to say "Yes, a little bit, actually."

[arcane-the-sage.livejournal.com]

Note that $300 would buy a man an ok to good quality suit. I've seen good suits go for $500-$600. Now if you want to talk about the "great" category, then we can easily start talking $1000+

[bigscary.livejournal.com]

I have no trouble (SYMS!!!) getting a good suit for <300. The problem is getting more than one at a time at that price, along with a couple of shirts. I should also get some more ties.

[bigscary.livejournal.com]

Easily. Dayle -- ask your father what he pays for suits he considers suitable for the office or court.

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

That's just it--aside from his two Matlock suits (a tan one and country blue one), they all look the same to me. Wouldn't be able to tell one from the other, so why would any one else? You rotate in the lighter ones on occasion, and people will think you change your suit everyday. Easy as lying!

[ivy03.livejournal.com]

You're not getting the whole point of bra shopping here. You have to find one that lifts, shapes, supports, fits and is comfortable. Not easy. That's why if you go into any lingerie dressing room (which I'm sure you haven't) there are reject bras all over the benches and floor. Typically, if I'm looking for a new bra I have to try on 15-20 candidates. Difficulty of shopping for a suitable bra is only surpassed by swimsuits and formal dresses.

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

Difficulty of bra shopping is also increased by shopping for formal dresses. Have to look good, have shape, et al. but can't have bra straps in the way--which is why I had to wear pasties to my sister's wedding.

[earthrise.livejournal.com]

The point is that, with a situation in which it's impossible to categorically dismiss all abortion cases as "wrong" (c.f. this case about Claudia Crown Ades continued here for a good example of the cases whereby it is "right," in addition to being a good example of the pain and horror most women who need abortions go through) , the government simply CANNOT pass or revoke an absolute law illegalizing and/or criminalizing a medical procedure.

Unless I've missed Dayle's point, and the point of most people who seek to protect Roe v. Wade, nobody goes to get abortions for fun. It's an emotionally and physically trying process, but one that cannot be banned for health and humanity reasons.

[earthrise.livejournal.com]

I'm going to say "yes, a lot, actually." It doesn't take being a camoflage-pants-wearing-bra-burning Angry Feminist to see that. Though I do appreciate your diplomacy, I also sometimes wish we could be as angry as the right about these things.

Meanwhile, it may not be about mpreg, but I direct you to an incarnation of the menstruating men bit that was going around about 5 years back. I have no idea if the Steinem bit is legit, but I remember thinking "right on" back then.

[umeyard.livejournal.com]

You also forgot to mention that to wear all the styles of clothes you need to buy specific bras to go for diffrent ocassions. Like shoes...just not as visable.

I still cant find a bra that works with a halter top for under $45 *grumbles*
but between sport bras, strapless, backless, the hated backless strapless (they use this as a form of tourture in some countries i think), low cut, and the infamous i just dont care bra.

Being a girl sucks. Sometimes the free drinks in the bars are just not worth it....

[slackwench.livejournal.com]

The solution is obviously for you to stop wearing them. Free the New York two!

[hslayer.livejournal.com]

The presentation in health class I saw proposed we institute the "wonder-jock," a device to make a man's package more prominent in the way the wonder-bra enhanced smaller bust lines and put larger ones just that much more out there.

There is, it's called a sock. They usually ball it up and stuff it down there.

I'm sorry for your plight, but you'll have to take it up with Darwin. If bras really need to support and shape and blah and blah and blah, I'm surprised they cost less than a small airplane; I'm sure as much engineering goes into them. But it's not the fault of men or garment makers or clothing stores that male dangly bits - even the very largest - don't require feats of structural engineering to avoid them causing us pain.