(no subject)

[trinityvixen]

I can see why Our Mrs. Reynolds is on everybody's favorite Firefly episodes list. It was pretty hysterical, and one of the first plots in the episode that didn't seem totally obvious from the get-go. The ones before that on the collected series disc two, Shindig and Safe(I think that's what the witch one was) were less than stellar, but Jaynestown was almost as funny and awful at the same time as Our Mrs. Reynolds.

More random notes now that I am officially halfway through the series:
- I continue to love Mal as much as I loathe him. In "Shindig," I had the same raised eyebrow over his being all upset that Lord Fussypants treated Inara like a whore despite the fact he repeatedly called that to her face and poked mean-spirited fun at her business every chance he got. He only partially rescues his hypocritical behavior with that line about 'I don't respect your profession but I respect you' crap. If you respected her so much but disliked what she did, shouldn't you encourage her into other paths rather than denigrating the one she's on? I know, I know, sit you rabid Firefly-fan friends, it wouldn't be in-character for Mal. I get it. I do love a wounded man, though.

- Speaking of, Simon: grow. some. testicles. Kaylee almost comes right out and says it at the end of "Jaynestown," the second episode on the disc in which Simon has managed to stumble into someone's fists, but her approbation is slight and voiced from the point of view of a fawning girl rather than a tough-and-practical friend (were she Jayne, she probably would have not only made the point but also smacked him around some to make sure it was driven home). Again, however, I contradict myself because Simon at the end of "Jaynestown"? Teh hotzors, to borrow a page from feiran's annoyifying slang speak.

- ::giggles:: I am not loving the cursing in Chinese too much, and gorram doesn't have the punch of a good 'frell!' but I ::heart:: you, Joss, for your second greatest contribution to the degradation of the English language after Buffy's "age" nounifying. Oh...damn.

- River has only gotten weirder--her interaction with Badger as a Cockney was well-timed and humorous--but her powers/abilities remain elusive and just frustrating. It might not be so bad if this were a full season of show, where I could reasonably accept this kind of tease. Seeing as the show's over in another two discs and the movie is still puzzling out her abilities (so it seems from the trailer), grrr. Also, Simon is a weeeeeee bit too attached to her. "Safe" made me a little squicky about how quickly he was willing to die with her. I was getting enough incest creep-outs from Arrested Development's first season (man, another series to finish).

- I still love Steve the Pirate and wife (I really didn't catch her name until the second disc because, well, having a husband named Steve the Pirate is a little bit distracting). Lisa was home for one part of an episode, saw the actress and knew who she was. I still operated in the dark, going 'yeah, she looks familiar,' and eventually gave up an IMDB'd it. Damn you woman and your useless appearance in The Matrix sequels! Yes, I'm bitter, but I forgive her for Firefly's duration. Yeah, loving Steve the Pirate and wife's interaction, even the pointless post-coital hangout, but especially loved Steve's refusal to be seduced by space vixen because marital fidelity in the face of crisis like that makes me go a big rubbery one.

- Called it with Inara and Saffron's interaction. One step away from kissing...wait for it...wait for it. "Oh, you're good." T-vixen does triumphy dance. Also, ::heart:: scene where Inara swoops in on Mal and kisses him, gets knocked out. Seemed a very Farscape-y moment. And Mal not figuring it out? ::MEGATONBERRY HEARTIFYING::

At this point, as was promised by all who read my first missive on Firefly's first quarter season, I am seeing more emotional development and character progression, but it's tending to build/modify characters who are already pretty well established: Mal as the less-than-scrupulous, honorable thief; Inara as the confident hooker with a heart of gold and a soft spot for the innocent and the noble hidden behind her patrician facade; Simon as haughty and arrogant and hurtful as a result while being simultaneously regretful, awkward, and backwards about it. The minor changes introduced so far--Preacher as more-than-he-seems; Jayne having doubts-about-his-cold-heart; River coming-out-of-her-shell-at-crucial-yet-seemingly-innocuous-moments; haven't really paid off yet. Wash and Zoe (must not call them Steve and Cas any more, must not call them Steve and Cas) haven't really been given their fair shake as yet, nor has Kaylee. Will see.

In other related musings, I'm already debating my 'ships. Someone on my friends list, either alizzy or linaerys I think, posited that in "Serenity," Simon and Mal's first interaction is a long, lusty sizing up, and, at the time, I didn't disagree (it was pretty hot, I'll say that much). I'm going to take a stab and assume that Simon/Kaylee is pretty well established by now, as is Mal/Inara, but I'm sure Mal/Simon is a pretty deep slash pool at this point. I have no problems with that. But, according to the law of badfic, all available characters must pair off when there are an equal number of men and women, that would mean it's Jayne/River which can't end well for him. Oh, sorry, Shepherd, you don't qualify as available because of profession and oldness.

I'm being good and avoiding fanfic at this point. By being good, I mean "for my own safety" more than I mean "to avoid spoilers." I've already had to cut myself off from looking up quotes because of potential spoilage, but that's not what scares me about reading Firefly fanfic. On the other hand, it's a small but dedicated fandom. Maybe it's not that bad. Thoughts on this, ivy03? Anyone? Bueller?

Comments

[linaerys.livejournal.com]

There is some darn good Firefly fanfic out there.

And yeah, Mal/Simon is a pretty well established fanfic pairing, but not as much as Simon/Jayne. Also, my standards may be a little lower than yours when the fic is pressing all my OMGHAWT buttons. And I know you don't like the slash so much.

Simon's continual rejection of Kaylee's advances is why there is so much slash fic about him. That and the pretty pretty pretty.

Also, with all the women flirting with each other, there is a decent amount of femmeslash out there. It is, as they say, the Ship of Sex.

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

Second ship of sex. I still say Moya had them beat for sexual deviance--"Won't Get Fooled Again" had Rygel in dominatrix gear. It. Is. Scary.

Also, I notice that all the men on the ship, save for Wash, seem to have gay-readings (not saying they are, but their behavior could be interpreted as such, and blame this stupid Batman-analysis book I'm reading for the 'multitextual reading' crap I spew from here on). Jayne seems to be covering, but his biggest problems with Mal seem to be macho confrontational and jealousy over Mal's refusal to let him have reign. Mal and Simon both, thus far as I am into the series, have rejected female advances. That Mal rejected Saffron saying "it's been a long, long time since..." and his implied erection in response to naked lady throwing herself at him is indicative of heterosexuality, but not conclusive. Likewise, Simon puts off Kaylee in "Jaynestown" by flipping out and assuring Mal he would 'never with Kaylee' and later saying he isn't flirtateous and cheap with her because that's 'his way of showing her he likes her.'

Let's take a minute to roll our eyes at that one collectively.

The femmeslash, on the other hand, I totally get as one reading of how intimate Kaylee and Inara are together. Kaylee isn't quite scornful of Inara and not quite jealous of her either in her admiration and awe. Inara is indulgent of a supposedly innocent (I have my own theories) girl, more than willing to give her a buck-up of confidence. And we all know what buck rhymes with.

I don't like slash so much, tis true, but I'm a sucker for slashy romance without sex, and I love slashy sexual tension (I do watch Smallville after all). Simon/Jayne? Meh, not hawt enough.

[ivy03.livejournal.com]

Let's take a minute to roll our eyes at that one collectively.

I tend to read this as his total ineptitude at social interactions. We all know the type - brilliant, but dumb as a post.

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

There's that, but I think my GAFF side is showing. Most characters who are written as sweet but bumbling where it comes to love and physical stuff are therefore classified as virginal. Suethors try to be the woman of X's dreams who will graduate him to manhood (oh, I loved that poor guy Inara got off at 26, my heart really ached for his embarrassment). As such, I'm resistent to that reading of characters I like, including Simon.

That said, I actually do think there's a case to be made for highly inexperienced, possibly virginal Simon. His interactions with Inara are among the most illuminating, and pity there's not really been many that I've seen. In "Serenity," he comes to requisition her sterilized kit for treating Kaylee, and he's completely comfortable and not curious about her in a way that he's not capable of being with just about anyone else. With his background, I suspect he'd have been exposed to Companions long ago and is fully apprised as to what function they serve. The presentation would have probably been at a ball like the one from "Shindig" in which the seedier aspects of Companion work would have seemed less important in the face of a glorious and glamorous escort. His familiarity with that, coupled with his fish-out-of-water problems with everyone else's function aboard the ship, makes him most capable of comfort with Inara.

That comfort could be also from relief that he doesn't have to worry about any romantic/physical problems with her--as a Companion, it would have to be a business arrangement, and as long as he doesn't ask to do business, he'll be fine. Conversely, if he wants to do business, it would be straightforward and without the lingering discomfort and embarrassment he gets every time he shoots off his mouth in front of poor Kaylee.

All this translates to a man who, as a doctor and son of money, is familiar with the mechanics and business of sex and who might be most comfortable dealing with that subject in those terms only. That's the reading I get out of his faulty attempts to relate to women. You can also use all these arguments, his calm around obviously beautiful women and indifference to the one source of guaranteed sex on the boat as gay-day blips. You can keep it within the hetero paradigm and say that he's very experienced but that he's just not interested at present with life as a fugitive and River to worry about.

Then again, you can just say River's the problem in more ways than one, and leave it at that as I'm finding out a lot of people do...squickage.

[newredshoes]

'Mnot giving anything away, but you get so much payoff in the Big Damn Movie that comes out in September. :-D

[decidedly.livejournal.com]

Honestly? As far as pairings go...I'm a Simon/River girl at heart. Horrible, isn't it? But Mal/Simon presses all the right buttons as well.

I read a fabulous Kaylee/Inara not too long ago that someone on my f'list recommended...I'll have to dig that up.

[linaerys.livejournal.com]

Oooh, any recs for any of those pairings you wanted to pass my way would be very welcome.

[decidedly.livejournal.com]

Silverlake has some stellar Firefly fic in their archive. Some I really like that are listed:

Coupled Oscillation (Simon/River) by Dana Woods
Opaque (Inara/Mal) by Northlight
Sanguine (general) by Tiger Lady
Tourniquet (Simon) by Pearl-O
Threading (Mal/Simon) by Sara
Turn Away (Jayne) by Simon Field

Anyway, I'll stop now. You really should check out the site, though -- not just the Firefly stuff, but everything else. I keep intending to sign up for the mailing list, but am easily distracted. :)

And I can't seem to find that Kaylee/Inara I read the other day. I'll let you know if I do.

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

I get Simon/River, actually, but my squick button gets set off by anything beyond romantic leanings, so I wouldn't probably be able to go the whole way with that. On the other hand, given how little River progresses, it'd be years before he'd be able to get away from her long enough to get another girl/boyfriend. Poor Simon, getting on with [insert character of your choice] and River walks in and starts shrieking. Reminds me of poor Laura Linney in Love, Actually.

[ivy03.livejournal.com]

Laura Linney in Love, Actually.

Quite. That was one of the few things I liked about that movie - the schizophrenic brother saying "I'm in hell." See my comments below on River's self-awareness. Who knew I had a thing for crazies in fiction?

[ecmyers.livejournal.com]

Heh, I really like Saffron and "Our Man Mr. Reynold's" is one of my favorite episodes, but I know a couple of people who find her annoying. Oh well. You have two more discs of goodness to get through! I really like most of the episodes fairly well, and in a way, I'd rather have the series cut short before it ever has a chance to suck, as much as I want more Firefly. I think I'll avoid the fanfic, though. Thanks.

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

See, I'm thinking that's why the series got so rabidly popular. It didn't have any time to suck. I remember being rabid for Buffy, and then there were two-three seasons on UPN to punish me for it. Buffy-verese should probably have ended with the Mayor at Graduation because that was the last time I cared about a villain or plot arc. Hated Glory, hated the First nonsense, etc etc.

[ivy03.livejournal.com]

before it ever has a chance to suck

I third that. Part of the appeal is that there's so much promise and nothing to let down our expectations. We all imagine that if it had continued, it would have been perfect, but we all know Joss loves curveballs, and I'm sure one of those curveballs would have pissed me off (can you say Connor?).

[ivy03.livejournal.com]

Shindig and Safe(I think that's what the witch one was) were less than stellar

As I think I’ve mentioned, Safe is one of my favorites. Why? For River’s little speech in the middle. I know River is not just a schizophrenic, that there is something deeper going on here, but even so, the writing of River is consistently stellar. Portrayals of crazy people tend off to be pat and one-dimensional. Here you have someone who is viscious to her caretaker one minute, then the next acknowledges that she is a burden. She knows she’s crazy, she knows what Simon’s sacrificed, and it is her feelings of helplessness and despair over her condition that account for as much of her behaviour as the craziness. I *heart* Joss for this. Also, this was the episode that showed Mal as the good father of the Tam family, contrasting him with the real Tam father, who, though overtly affectionate, when push came to shove, abandoned his children. I only wish that the series had gone on longer and we had had a chance for Simon and River to reencounter their parents. Between what’s been done to River and how much Simon has changed, dramatic gold, baby.

Teh hotzors

I agree heartily. And as for Simon – just wait until you see Ariel.

I am not loving the cursing in Chinese too much

When you’re done, I can lend you my book with all the translations. Some if it’s just foul.

Buffy's "age" nounifying

Huh? What is this of which you speak?

Also, Simon is a weeeeeee bit too attached to her.

You think that’s bad, watch the deleted scene from Our Mrs. Reynolds. You will not be surprised to learn that a large section of the fandom is devoted to Simon/River. It’s called CSI – Crazy Space Incest. I avoid it because, in addition to being squicky incest, River in fanfic is about a hundred times more annoying and less comprehensible than River in the show. In the show, I always get the feeling that everything she says is meaningful, we just lack the context. Like all those crazies in season 5 of Buffy – once Joss reveals the greater structure, everything River said would fall into place. But since Joss did not reveal his plans, fanfic writers end up spouting shit.

I still operated in the dark, going 'yeah, she looks familiar,' and eventually gave up an IMDB'd it.

You didn’t know who Gina Torres was? Shame on you. Bad fangirl. She’s the queen of bad genre stuff. She was Jasmine, the big bad in season 5 (4?) of Angel. She was Nebula, Iolaus’s main love interest in seasons 4 and 5 of Hercules (and Iolaus-possessed-by-Dahak haunted her into insanity in season 5). And if you think her being in The Matrix sequels was bad, then you should know she was the star of Cleopatra 2525. *shudder*

And I need to point out that Alan Tudyk was also in “A Knight’s Tale,” though I won’t watch that even for him.

Steve's refusal to be seduced by space vixen because marital fidelity in the face of crisis like that makes me go a big rubbery one.

Well, if you were married to Gina Torres, would you cheat on her with that? I actually don’t like Our Mrs. Reynolds that much because Saffron bugs the hell out of me. By the second time she was doing her “oh! I’m a virgin! Educate me in the ways of love!” bit I wanted to puke. Though I’ll forgive the episode just because of Vera.

Jayne having doubts-about-his-cold-heart

I have only one thing to say about Jayne. Jayne is Cordelia.

OK, apparently there's a word limit on comments. Who knew?

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

Buffy's "age" nounifying

Huh? What is this of which you speak?

In Buffy-verse, they'd add 'age' to things to make them nouns. So if you wanted to say 'there was a lot of fangirl squealing over Serenity coming to theaters,' in Buffy-speak, you'd say, "check out the fangirl squealage."

I've seen and actually own A Knight's Tale. It's not a bad film. It's not great, but it's genuinely amusing, with Paul Bettany as Chaucer being a stand out, and it's really silly. Anachronisms like ancient joust-going peasants stomping their feet to that delightful old madrigal "We Will Rock You"? Sign me up. And yes, Hercules is the show Lisa recognized her from. Shame on me, I guess, but I'm not a fan. I liked Xena better, and even then, I only watched it for the Callisto and Bruce Campbell (was it Autolycus? Does it matter?)

I have only one thing to say about Jayne. Jayne is Cordelia.

That's fairly brilliant. They both have an awareness of their limitations without fully recognizing them (Cordelia's not too bright, but she's the one constantly going 'duh;' Jayne isn't a worthy leader and doesn't kick up too much fuss when his attempts to seize command are thwarted). I really found Cordy quite annoying for a good long time, too, and I wasn't a fan of trying to make her sympathetic with her and Xander's break up episodes, and when she left for Angel, I was not upset about it. Jayne is a bit more endearing because he's actually dangerous versus just virtriolic, which is why his sudden attack on conscience in "Jaynestown" seems as just as unfortunate as Cordy's evolution and inclusion with the Scoobies.

[ivy03.livejournal.com]

Oh, -age. I was thinking age as in, I'm 24.

As for my comment on Jayne, it's not my comment, it's Joss's. He draws the comparisons because Jayne is always the one who verbalizes what everyone else is thinking, however inappropriate.

"Did Jayne just go crazy and fall over?"

[ecmyers.livejournal.com]

When you’re done, I can lend you my book with all the translations. Some if it’s just foul.

Is that in that book of essays about Firefly?

And I really didn't like Gina Torres on Hercules, and I hated Cleopatra 2525, so I was pleased to discover that she is excellent on this show. She also had a small part in the third season of 24.

A Knight's Tale is actually quite enjoyable, largely because of Tudyk, although I, Robot was not (he was the voice of the robots).

[ivy03.livejournal.com]

Is that in that book of essays about Firefly?

Yup. And you can read my review of it in the November issue of New York Review of Science Fiction.

[decidedly.livejournal.com]

I agree heartily. And as for Simon – just wait until you see Ariel.

I didn't like Simon until this episode, and then it allllll became clear. He and Mal are my favorites. So I second the oh-so-wise ms ivy03. You will be richly rewarded.

And a note on River: I hated her until the last third of the series, but by the end I embraced her completely. This show is going to do that to you with these characters.

And I have so much more I want to respond to in this thread...and no more lunch break to do it in. Unfair!

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

Jump on board the doooooosy I'm gonna write tomorrow.

Can't talk more, must. finish. series.

[ivy03.livejournal.com]

continued...

but I'm sure Mal/Simon is a pretty deep slash pool at this point.

And you wouldn’t be wrong. I don’t read much Firefly fic (see above bad writing of River), and so far I haven’t liked Mal/Simon as a pairing. Writers of that bring those two together and their wuv makes them whole – which just makes them boring as fuck characters. The only slash I have liked has been Simon/Jayne – but I’ll wait until after you’ve finished the series to explore that.

Another reason to avoid Firefly fanfic – Smallville/Firefly crossovers. That’s right, Simon/Lex. *more shudders*

You’re right that it’s a small enough (and mature enough) fandom that you don’t get the preteen Mary Suers. Suethors wouldn’t watch this show. But that doesn’t mean it’s good stuff. I again lay the blame at Fox’s feet because Firefly is a show where you know there is an extensively conceived world that we only know a tiny portion of, which makes the ficcer’s job really hard. I actually wrote a one-shot about Simon, but it’s gen and has no plot. You can read it at: http://www.livejournal.com/users/ivy03/25839.html

I actually wrote another one before I finished watching the series, and it turns out that I was completely wrong about a number of things, so I won’t link you to that.

Yeah, that was my lunch break. Damn you!

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

Another reason to avoid Firefly fanfic – Smallville/Firefly crossovers. That’s right, Simon/Lex. *more shudders*

...uh, how exactly? Seeing as Lex would be residing on 'earth that was'? Never mind, I don't care and don't want to know.

I liked the Simon one-shot. So far, the series has him behaving like most compassionate but clearly spoiled rich children in that he disdains things but politeness usually masks his contempt. I would like to think someone capable of risking all that he has for River has shed some of those preconceived notions, but seeing as I'm not sure how long he was on the run with her before meeting the Serenity's crew, it's possible that he's having adjustment issues still. Lovely.

Yeah, that was my lunch break. Damn you!

In the words of the Lord Marshal, "Convert now or fall forever." Give in to the discussion, or stay bereft with your food. hahahaha, no, kidding! Come on, how could I not be kidding when I'm quoting Chronicles of Riddick?

[ivy03.livejournal.com]

Not seen Chronicles of Riddick.

As for Simon - I think the implication is that he just went on the run. It reminds me of a Moonlighting episode where David Addison (Bruce Willis) is suspected of murder and decides to go "underground." A few day's later he shows up at Maddie's because, as he says, there are no roadmaps to "underground."

Simon knows he needs to go "underground," but has no idea how to do it or what that means. Good thing he met up with the Serenity crew or he'd be screwed.

[ivy03.livejournal.com]

...uh, how exactly?

Have you read Kingdom Come? Well, imagine that comic without the happy ending. This author posited that that's how Earth that Was became Earth that Was. I don't remember the exact mechanism of Lex jumping forward in time, but it was probably Kryptonian. And he did reencounter a deranged Clark who was now...(drumroll please)...one of the blue hand men for the Alliance. Or rather, their progenitor.

For all that, it was kind of cool how Lex just kicked ass even when completely removed from his world.

[ecmyers.livejournal.com]

Nice Simon fic!

[ivy03.livejournal.com]

Thank you muchly.

I just reread it and my only meep is with my use of crap. His internal voice just isn't Simon-y enough.

Ah, well.