trinityvixen: (somuchlove)
[personal profile] trinityvixen
There's a longer post coming, but just a quick shout-out to [livejournal.com profile] bigscary, [livejournal.com profile] darkling1, [livejournal.com profile] kent_allard_jr, and [livejournal.com profile] teneda for moving that TV for us. We are mighty with the power, and we could not have done it without you. I hope the margaritas and cookies will soothe any muscle pulls.

Also, HOW F'ING COOL DOES THIS LOOK?!?!?!?! That's our first shot of Venom, ladies and gents. Look and love. I do.

I now completely trust that Sam Raimi has everything in hand with Spider-Man 3. In Raimi we trust, people.

Date: 2006-07-23 10:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] slackwench.livejournal.com
I guess I hadn't thought of this before. Is the movie going to be like five hours long? They've gotta fit in the new costume story, a bunch of Venom fights (possibly up to a reconciliation like in the comic) AND they've gotta finish dealing with the Green Goblin! This is assuming that there won't be a fourth movie, I guess.

Date: 2006-07-23 10:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kent-allard-jr.livejournal.com
Sandman too, right?

Raimi or not, this is beginning to sound like X-Men 3...

Date: 2006-07-23 10:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] slackwench.livejournal.com
I'd forgotten about him. Why Sandman anyway? He's not a Spiderman arch enemy...

Date: 2006-07-23 10:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] trinityvixen.livejournal.com
I think he'll be the muscle-part of the B-story. So he'll be the actor in Harry's manipulations, if it's done right.

Date: 2006-07-23 10:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] trinityvixen.livejournal.com
Given what I've seen of Sandman? I think he'll play the Nightcrawler-type role--he'll be new and shiny for the story, but he won't be at the center of the plot. He'll drive narrative and be a character, but his story won't be the villain story like Doc Ock was the villain story of Spider-Man 2. I'm guessing Venom and Green Goblin Mark 2 will be.

How are you recovering from last night?

Date: 2006-07-23 10:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] trinityvixen.livejournal.com
They said they weren't leaving the ending totally open, so three won't depend on their being a four, but that there would be enough to do with the story such that there would be room for a fourth movie in the universe.

I think the black costume story can be done at the beginning and be wrapped--as in Peter gets rids of it--by the halfway point in time for Eddie Brock to pick it up (they did Venom's story pretty well in two eps of the Spider-Man cartoon, so I think Raimi can do it better in under an hour). At the same time, Peter and MJ getting closer/backing off because of the black costume leaves the opening for the second Goblin to start insinuating himself into the mix. Also, it's possible that he'll bring in Sandman to mess/mix things up while he stays out of it.

I still trust Raimi will get it right. Better than X-Men: the Last Stand, for sure.

Date: 2006-07-23 11:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] slackwench.livejournal.com
Oh yeah, so Peter/MJ: they're ALSO going to try to do the Gwen Stacy thing (somehow, since they already did the end of it in the first movie). Maybe they'll try to combine some stuff? Like SM could deal with GG while he's in the black costume (although GG should really be taken out at the end of the movie).

While I'm thinking about this, I also forgot that the Lizard was supposed to be in this movie too.

The whole mess could be made so much better if they'd just have Spidey not make the big mistake of dumping the symbiote costume. I've never understood why he did that. It's a virtually indestructible costume which makes its own webbing, enhances his strength and allows him to be a chameleon! The comic never explains why he's so freaked out about it, other than that it wants to bond with him permanently -- but so what?

Date: 2006-07-23 11:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] trinityvixen.livejournal.com
It has a tendency to provoke its host to acts of violence because it feeds off adrenaline. Combined with a super-powered individual, such instability could lead to real trouble, and it did (Venom). Plus, there was backstory with the symbiote such that its kind used to go out and dominate other species, often driving hosts to their death at the same time. It's eeeeevil.

Date: 2006-07-23 11:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] slackwench.livejournal.com
I'd say it's a bigger problem with non super powered folks, like Brock. Spidey goes out every night and beats up bad guys. Every time he gets into a fight, the symbiote would get fed. With a normal person, it's got to get them to do something unusual to provide food.

In any case, this must have been added later. I have the whole black costume story in a bound volume at home. None of this is in there, so Peter wouldn't know any of it at the time.

And anyway, how the hell is he even going to have the opportunity to get the symbiote? The background for the story where he gets it in the comic just isn't there. I'm guessing it's going to be some experimental project or something, which would make the excuse that it's an evil conquering species irrelevant.

Date: 2006-07-24 03:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] trinityvixen.livejournal.com
Unless they use the Jameson Jr. approach: have him collect some space rocks, one of which is carrying the symbiote...

As for the symbiote being evil, I thought that was there from the beginning, but I was wrong, clearly. What Peter knew is that it was a conscious entity trying to meld with him. That's admittedly pretty scary. And if it's an adrenaline junkie, it might cause Spidey to do severe things, and he's got enough of a PR problem as is, neh?

Date: 2006-07-24 04:25 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] slackwench.livejournal.com
Space rocks are another possibility. But even then, how would we know the history of the symbiote species?

It's possible the evilitude was there in the part where he actually GETS the symbiote. I only have the part starting after all the superheroes get back to Earth up to where Mr. Fantastic forcibly separates the symbiote from Peter. The thing about it wanting to bond with him and him freaking out was what I was thinking. But at that point, he didn't know anything about it and what it fed on etc.

More on evilness: Venom is reckless and hated Spidey, but wasn't evil. He thought Spidey/PP was the evil one. And in fact, after they had a final fight and Venom decided Spidey wasn't so bad after all, there was a miniseries with Venom as the protagonist. I never read that comic, but from the impossible to understand Wikipedia entry on Venom (which really shows the schizophrenia of the Marvel universe), it seems like he's basically a Punisher type antihero.

Date: 2006-07-24 05:28 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] trinityvixen.livejournal.com
I freely admit to missing the black-costume Spidey serial, as I never have read the comics (except for a few years of Ultimate), so I probably have no idea what I'm talking about. I based this off of wiki entries, and the appearance of the outfit in other media. Oh well.

Venom could be cool on screen as a more schizo character with an antipathy not for Spider-Man but for Peter--in the first movie, there's a toss-away line about Eddie (assuming that means Brock) having tried to get pics of Spidey for weeks. Then Peter shows up and gets amazings ones in a heartbeat. My guess is that would leave a guy kinda bitter. Combined with the symbiote nursing hurt feelings over being rejected, and you have a Venom with issues with our hero that aren't "Wah wah you killed my eeeeevil daddy, wah wah."

Date: 2006-07-24 05:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] slackwench.livejournal.com
Aaaand you've just described Venom's motivation completely. Brock is mad at Peter for being the better photographer (and I think for something else related to getting him fired).

Date: 2006-07-24 05:35 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] trinityvixen.livejournal.com
Oh, good, well, then that's all set then. I'm glad to hear that that's canon because otherwise the bit comments about Eddie Brock would just be ha-ha, nudge-nudge remarks to the fans (kinda like all the super-power-they-will-inherit foreshadowing remarks in Fantastic Four).

Cool.

a quick Venom clarification

Date: 2006-07-24 07:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] arcane-the-sage.livejournal.com
Ok first off Venom is not evil, far from it in truth. Venom's hatred of spiderman stems from both the symbiote's feelings of betrayal and Brock's dislike of Peter. In truth the symbiote itself is feral in nature and passes on feral qualities to whomever it bonds to. In the case of spiderman this increased his aggression towards the people around him and almost lead to him killing people we was trying to stop (hence why spidy gave it the boot). In Brock's case, the emotional state of both beings combined to view Spiderman as a devil figure that needed destroying.

In fact, as they later went into in the Venom comics, Venom is very much a heroic figure in his own mind. He feels the need to protect the "innocent" from any form of harm. He eventually forgives Spiderman for "taking away his innocence" from when spiderman got rid of it.


PS: The what if comic where the venom symbiote ends up missing Brock and combining with the Punisher shows just how individualistic the symbiote binding really is. In that comic the Venom/Punisher could care less about spiderman but cuts a path of destruction through the criminal underworld (to quote "Webs? What the hell? Wait, now that more a like it." *as his arms shift from webbing to bullet production* ).

Re: a quick Venom clarification

Date: 2006-07-24 09:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] trinityvixen.livejournal.com
I don't know. I think that even with that explanation, Venom is still pretty evil. That he is also cool might go a long way towards explaining why the character was made an anti-hero instead of a villain in the end. Being a heroic figure in your own mind has never meant that you're not a villain. Mags thinks he's a hero, and he's been responsible for many a villainous--unforgiveably so--act against man (and, sometimes, mutant). Likewise Doom, am I correct (don't know as much about him, so I might be wrong)?

Re: a quick Venom clarification

Date: 2006-07-25 03:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] arcane-the-sage.livejournal.com
Doom is actually quite interesting in that respect. When hit with Dagger's light powers he was unaffected. That really freaked her out since all evil people are affected. Dr. Doom truly does believe his actions are to the benefit of all the people of Earth. Magneto on the other hand never hid his bias against humans. He saw them little more than troglodytes who were doomed to extinction in the not so distant future. As such he didn't care if they lived or died. Both men believed in the so called greater good, but one could argue that Doom is "less evil" than Magneto since his heart does not harbor such bias (yeah I'm nit picking here).

Venom on the other hand never really bore any ill will to anyone but Spiderman (though those around Spidy did get pulled into the mix). For Venom it was more about avenging a wrong more than anything else. It was only when others attacked or threatened him that he would respond in kind. If Spiderman was not an established hero, Venom might not have even gotten the "villain" label.

Re: a quick Venom clarification

Date: 2006-07-25 03:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] trinityvixen.livejournal.com
Hrm, I dunno. Venom doesn't usually get so much credit in just about any version of the story I've seen. Not in the various cartoon/TV/movie incarnations, not in Ultimate Spidey (dude, Ultimate Spider-Man the game makes him deliciously malevolent), et al. I realize that's not canon, as-he-was-first-conceived Venom, but there has to be something about Venom as he was presented originally that's let it resonate with that characterization in later works (perhaps all writers since have just been lazy--which is entirely possible).

As for Doom, meh to him. I still can't call up any interest. Then again, the FF folk have never been very interesting to me. I've read a few select bits (JMS had an interesting short run on the main title that was good) and some of Ultimate, but I just can't get enthused about their stuff.

Date: 2006-07-24 01:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cbreakr.livejournal.com
However it is that the plot works out, that picture is still some new hotness.

Date: 2006-07-24 03:44 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Word.

Date: 2006-07-24 04:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] droidguy1119.livejournal.com
Rumor has it there's a fourth villain in the pic but all accounts point to the presence being completely minimal -- one scene at the most.

Date: 2006-07-24 05:30 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] trinityvixen.livejournal.com
Then I'm guessing it's the Lizard. They've tossed Doc Conners in there twice now, and he's actually played by a decent actor in Spider-Man 2. I'd love to see him be a hinted-at villain with an open possibility for development without a post-credits wink-wink or anything.

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