Spoilers!

[trinityvixen]

I liked it, but I am not a fan of the post-ep confessional. I think the performances are great in them, this episode and the one two before it where Dean admitted he remembered what Hell was like. I just don't like how tacked-on it feels. Confronting the problem in the midst of the action is way more dramatic.

That said? I love that Dean broke in Hell. I mean "aww, poor Dean-wubbie" blah blah blah, yes. But I actually enjoyed learning that he broke. Because I don't want Dean to be Ruby. Ruby bugs me for the fact that she's special-er-than-thou, that she can remember being human etc. I don't like exceptions to the rule that elevate people above what people are. That was the whole point of this episode and Anna's character: people feel. They feel good and they feel crappy; they are good and they are crappy. They make choices that affect themselves and others, often to the detriment of both (Mary, John, Bella...it goes on and on). I believe it was dotfic (or newredshoes?) who pointed out that the show pretty effectively sets up a midway point episode that may not seem all the important at the time and then builds to season's end with that intel in the background. I know that this episode is that middle episode, but I think that the episodes that inform upon the season are 4.07/4.08 because they put the emphasis on choice. Right or wrong, you assume and accept responsibility for your choices.

And Dean has to accept responsibility for what he did in Hell. He doesn't get to be forgiven so easily, even if an angel forgave him, because he didn't fail anyone but himself. (And possibly The Dad, but let's not get into that masochistic Winchester cycle again, mm?) What I liked is that Dean, who is awesome and superlatively great at what he does, is still human. He failed. Period. This is why I like Dean. It doesn't get to get kissed and made all better. (Not that he wasn't willing to try with Anna; oh, those wacky Winchester boys--shouldn't they know better than to get physically involved with Heaven or Hell?) Sometimes, it just doesn't heal. It sucks, it stays sucking, and there is no catharsis, only distraction.

Don't get me wrong: I do hope Dean finds some measure of forgiveness for himself. But he'd have to do it far, far away from the events of this season to do it, and I just don't think he'll get there for a long, long time. I also want him to earn such forgiveness, not just have it handed to him, hands washed of the whole mess. The mess needs to stay in the picture; it's why the picture is interesting in the first place.

That, and, yes, he's cute when he's all emotional. And shirtless. Very cute shirtless.

Comments

[gryphonrose.livejournal.com]

I enjoyed the ep except for one thing. Their lack of research really grates on me.

First they've got Castiel, who's a mere Angel O' the Week, pulling Dean out of Hell all by his lonesome. Um, what?

Then Uriel shows up--URIEL!!!--and he answers to Castiel? WTF?

And THEN the two of them get into a battle with three demons, two of them complete no-names and the third a turned human, and the turned human kicks Uriel's *ss? Are you kidding me? It's f*cking URIEL here! I would have bought it if Azazel battling him, because he's a bad-ass. But some little shmoe-boy human-turned-demon?

Yes, I'm a bit of an angeology/demonology nut but their blatant disregard for existing lore and unwillingness to do even the most basic research keeps throwing me out of the show.

Otherwise it was good. And yeah, I agree, I'm glad Dean broke. I'd have been very disappointed in the show otherwise.

[viridian.livejournal.com]

To be fair, it was Dean who assumed that Uriel answered to Castiel. I got the impression he didn't bother to correct Dean.

Also to be fair, we don't know how individual assignments work. If Anna is to be believed, you can be an important badass one day in heaven, and the next you're exiled to Earth to do fuck-all for a few thousand years. Maybe Uriel's current position grates on him so much precisely because he's answering to some no-name.

As for the demons, eh. I figure they've got some extra help from Lilith.

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

Maybe Uriel's current position grates on him so much precisely because he's answering to some no-name.

Yeah, see my comment below, but I have to believe it's a test. If God is infallible, He knows that Uriel isn't likely to take subversion of power well, to say the least. It's always a test, right?

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

I half wonder if this subversion of power isn't God's Plan. Castiel seems to believe it is, and Uriel is a step away from turning to the other side a la Gabriel in The Prophecy. I wouldn't be surprised if God has arranged this very much on purpose. Anna is supposedly the most powerful of the three, Uriel, traditionally, would be more powerful than Castiel, and Castiel is definitely more powerful than any human. However, Anna, the most powerful, has fallen, Uriel is held on a leash by Castiel, and Castiel is taking marching orders from Dean. I don't think that the show has made clear whether or not Castiel still has to listen to Dean--I mean, the angels were able to act against his wishes and go after Anna, but Castiel didn't fight Dean, he went around him. (It's not not listening if you just don't consult the boss, after all.)

Uriel is a name even I recognize, so I do think that it's weird that Castiel is in charge of him, but that's where my power theory comes into play. God tests everyone, is my thinking, and angels, while unfeeling (according to Anna; I have my doubts), still have immense pride. Anna has learned humility through being human, but Uriel still needs to learn. (Something tells me he's not one of the four who's actually talked with God.) Castiel's lesson I'm not clear on, but it's clear that he, too, is headed for a fall.

I dunno, I'm just willing to blame God on this one, I guess :)

Dean needed to break. He just had to be imperfect. Because he did. I can't even explain it better than that. Dean has always been a tragic figure of sacrifice--no pain, no suffering, no loss was too much if it meant everyone else he cared about was happy. He needed to be confronted with self-interest. They've only flirted with it when The Dad was still alive (Dean wanting them to all get along) and the one girlfriend-who-meant-something-more-than-sex (in that terrible, terrible season one episode). It needed to be more stark than that--there needed to be a point where Dean put himself first. But it couldn't be in a happy way because being immorally selfish is not an admirable trait any more than being unnaturally, masochistically sacrificial is. If you spend your energy on total denial, when you snap, you snap majorly. And he did, and that's what needed to happen.

[viridian.livejournal.com]

re: Angels and feeling -- I think Anna just oversimplified. If they couldn't feel, there would be no rebellion.

I do think that due to commandments or just their nature, their feelings get muted or trained out of them to an extent -- they're not allowed to act on them the way humans are, and I do think that anything that lives for an eternity eventually loses some of the immediacy of emotion just because it gets (literally) old.

It also makes me wonder about the relative ages of angels to one another. I feel like if they were just all created at once and then no more after that, then Anna wouldn't speak of Lucifer's fall in the remote way that she did, because she would've been on one side or the other during that war. But if she's as powerful as she is, then age wouldn't correspond to power, if she's above Uriel -- unless the rank changes from time to time. Which it could.

MEH. I'm thinking too hard about a character we may never actually hear from again.

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

I liked Anna a lot, actually. I totally LOLLED at the fact that the Winchesters are boning opposite sides of the war, but whatever, she was still cool. I hope we hear from her again.

Someone suggested that Castiel was due to fall (BECAUSE HE WUUUUUVS DEAN WINCHESTER, DONTCHA KNOW). I think that's possible, but I'm not entirely behind it. I'd like to know more of why Anna did what she did. Lucifer had a damned good reason--he was opposed to God's elevation of man above the angels. (In most mythologies, I mean, that's the case.) Anna fell and didn't turn into Satan. Why?

[viridian.livejournal.com]

I have a theory behind that, too! I think that since she didn't actively try to lead a rebellion, she wasn't auto-damned. I get the feeling that God in this universe is pretty hands-off, so if she wasn't an immediate threat, there wouldn't be any need to do anything about her. I also think that had she lived and died as a human without remembering anything of her past, she would've been eligible for forgiveness, since humans are granted that chance.

I also liked her a lot, which is why I'm thinking so hard about this.

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

I also think that had she lived and died as a human without remembering anything of her past, she would've been eligible for forgiveness, since humans are granted that chance.

The two references I have for this stuff? The Prophecy and Angel Sanctuary. And yet? Totally informative!

One of the things I liked about human/angel/demon myths that I've come across is the idea that only humans have souls. Angels have grace, which Anna pointed out is pretty amazing and essential and angels can't imagine being without it, but grace is God's gift (and is dependent on your staying in his good graces) while souls have free will. To me, it makes total sense that an angel might want a soul. After all, from what Ruby told Dean about demons, even demons have souls. I don't think there's any proof that angels do--they're entirely minions of God, and they can die (Castiel said some of his fellows had died in the war with Lilith). Most of the time, that's okay--they have grace and power and God. But in a time of impending war? Having an immortal soul, being beloved of God instead of just being his warrior must seem really tempting.

And, like you said, souls can be redeemed, and that's a major selling point there as well, especially for a fallen angel.