Survey Says?

[trinityvixen]

What is your stand on.....
Created by spyndakitrose and taken 15925 times on bzoink!
Abortion?	Pro-choice
Death Penalty?	For it
Prostitution?	Abso-fucking-lutely not
Alcohol?	Abso-fucking-lutely!
Marijuana?	No
Other drugs?	Definitely no
Gay marriage?	Definitely yes
Illegal immigrants?	Depends--are they legit refugees? Otherwise, no
Smoking?	It should be rooted out and exposed as the source of all evil.
Drunk driving?	DWI offenders have to spend time pretending to be orange cones in Student Driver testing lots
Cloning?	Hrm, can I clone things for me? I'd clone Alexander Hamilton!
Racism?	What kind of stupid question is that? Of course not
Premarital sex?	If you're willing and so is the other, why the hell not?
Religion?	If that's what floats your boat.
The war in Iraq?	You mean the post-war occupation of a 'sovereign' nation? Duh, against it.
Bush?	Is this question even necessary? The man should be strung up by his freakishly huge and sticking out ears.
Downloading music?	For it. Music should be paid for but should be paid for A LOT LESS THAN WHAT THE INDUSTRY CHARGES. Then maybe so many stupid people wouldn't be rich...
The legal drinking age?	18--if they can be drafted, they can have whatever the store's stocking
Porn?	Absolutely. Nothing wrong with it. How is this different from prostitution? For one, it's a helluva lot cleaner. Porn actors/actresses probably get fewer STDs than most people
Suicide?	Well, shouldn't be illegal or anything, but I'm not in favor of it or anything neither...
Create a Survey | Search Surveys | Go to bzoink!

Whew, it's Friday, innit? In other news, I watched Ju-On 2 with my friend last night, who, despite being tired as hell, watched until we got to the really really funny part, which I'd been harping on about all night. She thought it was okay but more funny that I was so amused. C'est la vie, non? Also, Carrie falls asleep no matter where she is the second she starts the inexorable slide into a lying down position. She also managed to fake being awake again when I got really excited when the funny part came on--I hit her shoulder to wake her, and she said, "I know, I'm awake, I know!" kinda testy-like. Then, after I drove Liz home, I came back and she woke up and was confused. Ah me.

Cross-stich update: I finished the ground! Time for the fan, the swords, and the shirt!

Comments

[happyelfling.livejournal.com]

Do you actually think prostitution should be illegal, or do you just generally think it's a bad idea?

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

I am not sure, really. Ideally, I'd say illegal. I think that, if you're strapped for cash, there should be no way you'll resort to that. It's not safe, it's definitely a problem...

On the other hand, I'm opposed to marijuana legalization but I've been informed that legalizing it will 'make it safer.' So, I guess you could argue that by legalizing prostitution there would be large firms replacing pimps who would, ideally again, take care of their women etc etc. I seriously doubt it, not for the money made by the average prostitute. Porn is different--that makes a lot more money because it's basically grubbing off the movie-star lifestyle, and, let's face it, movie stars make shitloads.

Basically, I have a problem with allowing a system that cannot help to degrade the women involved. Again, I have trouble making this argument while supporting porn, but part of me believes that, while extremely degrading, porn can't touch prostitution. Prostitution doesn't take names, doesn't give out W2s...maybe reason to make it legal? I dunno. I just think that you'd have a lot more problems with STDs being spread or else a loss of privacy if prostitution were legal. Think about it: to safe guard the women working as professionals, you'd have to have information taken from the john, which could easily be exposed later (not that I have a problem exposing these people, especially if they're married or whatever). This would make a professional highly unpopular, as the attraction (like with pornography) is the anonymity. Without names, however, there would be no way to track down people who come and spread disease.

Porno works because it's a controlled microenvironment versus the macroenvironment of people wanting to have sex--it just doesn't seem feasible to apply the standards for protecting sex workers to an industry as large as that of prostitution. Also, given the sensitive nature of the subject of sex in this country, especially as regards anonymous sex, sex for money, sex for pleasure, sex before marriage...I think it's more than likely that porn can be protected under free-speech et al, whereas prostitution doesn't have as much of a leg to stand on...

basically, I find prostitution repellent, but, in the spirit of fairness, no, that's not a reason it should be made illegal. But there are other good reasons.

[happyelfling.livejournal.com]

Hm. You should probably be made aware (if you're not already) that not all prostitutes consider themselves degraded.

Here's an interesting discussion board thread about "International Day of No Prostitution". http://p083.ezboard.com/fpseudochainsawfrm36.showMessage?topicID=49.topic

(from this board - http://p083.ezboard.com/fpseudochainsawfrm36 )

[viridian.livejournal.com]

Can't something be degrading to women, in general, whether individual women in the profession consider themselves degraded or not?

[wellgull.livejournal.com]

In the eyes of certain beholders. But the professional dommes that I know, at least (I don't know anybody who's openly a prostitute) in some cases find it degrading but do it anyway, and in other cases find it quite liberating. They don't think it's degrading to women in general.

So you get the question of whose standards determine whether something's degrading. The strongly anti-gay-marriage position believes that any form of union between gay people, including civil unions that don't even claim to be marriages, is degrading to marriage in general. Where's the point of reference to determine the absolute truth of that claim?

Even granting that something can be "degrading-in-the-abstract," I'd think whether or not one particular thing actually is degrading would depend on the personalities involved. Why is it inherently impossible to have sex with a prostitute and also respect her as a person? It isn't degrading to buy a donut from a street vendor, even if you don't know the guy's name or life story. You can respect the way he does his job, or the dedication he shows by working in the cold... The same would go for, say, someone who shines shoes (a closer comparison because it's a service rather than a product sale). You certainly don't have to disrespect him just because there's only a commercial relation between you, and you're getting something you want out of it. I mean, do you?

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

Yes, I would say so because even if it's not degrading at all to them--not just that they don't believe the act is degrading, but maybe even those who enjoy it--it's definitely degrading to women. It sends the message that sex is the woman's last resort, like violence is to a man. Historically, this is more than accurate--when a woman wants to move the world, she, well, sees that the earth moves with the right people. Men just hack, slash, and kill; women have always had to be more underhanded, and underhanded and sex go hand-in-hand. Sex shouldn't be driven undergound--if the society in general were more open about sex, prostitution would be, I believe, less necessary in general. But when you have an entire industry based on women just taking when men want to force upon them, that's degrading to women in general whether that's what rocks that woman's world or not.

Also, in regards to that link? I don't really think that sex-workers of the world have any right to make commentary on prostitution in general. A lot of the people on the board were mad about speaking out against sex-work. I believe there is a world of difference between the 'sex workers' and the prostitutes reporting in there. Sex workers think they have a right to be outraged at prostitution being illegal, but think about it: they don't do it. Why? Because they don't like it. Because it's something very few *would* like. If it's so great, go out and do it, if you're so in support of it. Stop just stripping and making dirty phone calls. I find it very hypocritical to be up in arms about protecting a profession you think is unfairly assaulted but cannot rightly be said to be a part of--if you don't choose to be a prostitute, there must be a reason.

I realize the same could be said of abortion--why be pro-choice if you don't want one yourself? I usually say it's so the other girl who does want one can have it. So, I suppose, prostitution being legal would carry the same implications as abortion: it makes it a helluva lot safer for those involved, there would be professionals who would keep the abusive, street-based folk out of it. It's just that it's impractical to apply that thinking to a system as large as prostitution rings would be. Abortions are few and far between because you have two moral considerations, sex and life/death issues, in addition to the medical know-how required to perform them. Prostitution, on the other hand, is concerned with sex and sex only, doesn't require an MD to perform, and just about everyone knows how it works, which means just about everyone can participate. Try regulating that. Imagine expanding the OSHA regulations to cover people and protect their health and safety in that line of work. It would be a nightmare.

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

This is why I think porn works and prostitution doesn't. Porn allows for wish fulfillment fantasy that takes a minimum of actual performances to have a finished product. Whereas to make money a prostitute must have sex with many anonymous partners, none of whom she will know or see again most likely, a porn star tends to know the people she works with--it's an industry, after all--and probably will shoot new movies with those people and only has to shoot the one movie with many takes with the same people. It's a question of many partners for a buck and many takes with the same partner for the film that then makes the money in wide distribution. To me, for the same effect--getting someone off--porn hurts fewer people. People in porn tend to like what they do a lot more than the ones on the street--maybe they don't actually like it better, but they get a hell of a lot more perks, and it's safer.

[wellgull.livejournal.com]

I think a lot of this conversation could be grounded in observations of the behavior of both johns and prostitutes in Nevada, where it is legal. I've only read a little bit about it, so I can't really give a great argument. But what I have seen suggests that it's much more complex than you'd think. There seems to be a lot of mutuality going on. The prostitute is in control over who she will and won't sleep with (because it's legal and licensed). They set different prices based on how willing they are to sleep with you, so if you're dirty or skeezy, you'll definitely have to pay a premium. And someone who's being disrespectful is pretty likely to get thrown out of the joint, far from being permitted to be a customer.

[wellgull.livejournal.com]

I also think that there should be sufficient social welfare programs in place that nobody becomes a prostitute out of desperation. That's what's really wrong with it -- the idea that it's a last resort of the helpless. No; the public good of the government should be the resort of the otherwise-helpless. For someone to be a prostitute and for that to be ok, it has to be a choice made from among many choices, leading to an empowered and active decision. And get the pimps out of it.

[kent-allard-jr.livejournal.com]

You should run for Mayor of New York.

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

Mayor you say...?

[kent-allard-jr.livejournal.com]

Yep, this is almost the perfect NY Mayor playform: Fry the crooks, get the hookers off the street, but be nice to gay people and kick Bush's ass. Just convert to Judaism and work on your NY accent and you'll be all set.

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

hrm...mayor...

I think I've got a good NY accent...then again, no one believed I had lived in New York all my life in middle school..

[kent-allard-jr.livejournal.com]

Oh, and you also need about $20 million...

[saikogrrl.livejournal.com]

Smoking: It should be rooted out and exposed as the source of all evil.

YES! ^_____^ I agree totally.

As for prostitution, well I agree it can be very exploitative of women who are in desperate situations, and perhaps steps should be taken to reduce the risk of them being exploited, but... in the end isn't it their choice what they do with their body? (like it is with abortion?) I know most would do it out of desperation, and it can cause psychological problems, but in making it illegal wouldn't that make the situation worse as it would drive it all underground, and women's safety couldn't be assured...? I dunno... I just think that is they really want to do it, they should be allowed to (i mean as long as its not hurting anyone, its kind of a service - they want to do it, and men want to pay them to do it...) Its's when they start getting exploited that it becomes a problem....



Also, I didn'y know you were for the death penalty.... :S

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

Yes, actually, I am pro-death penalty. There's a good part of me that believes in an eye-for-an-eye. Not for all things, and certainly I am in favor of its suspension in all cases save those where the burden of proof is so stacked against the defendant it's practically impossible to prove otherwise. Yes, it's applied unfairly, and should be revised before being applied, but in general, I think that the appeals process is so lengthy it's a pretty good way to assure innocents are rarely given the sentence. SHould they ever? Ideally, no, but this is far from ideal, I understand.

I favor death penalty for people who *knowingly* kill peace officers, for example. A policeman/woman is someone who places their life on the line to keep us all safe. If someone, knowing they're a cop, kills a police officer, they should get the death penalty. Because killing that officer undermines the safety of us all, wounds the community as much as the family and friends of the deceased. They're attacking the system as much as the person. If it was an accident, trying to get away through wounding that ended up killing the officer, no, not the death penalty, but someone who, so as not to get caught, etc etc, kills a cop deserves to die. They've turned in their part of the social contract, and that's all there is to it. Again, there are mitigating circumstances, and I am all for hearing them out, seeing if possibly the officer was in the wrong, threatening the subject et al. That comes first, of course, innocent until proven guilty. But the fact remains that if the death penalty were the default sentence (with option being *not* to choose it instead of the other way around), I think people would probably reconsider attacks on civil servants.

Also smoking=the devil.

[hslayer.livejournal.com]

Why does everyone seem to be assuming that the prostitution thing applies only to WOMEN?? (Hooray for opening a whole new can of worms!)