Biggest shock for me of the night?

[trinityvixen]

Et tu Racetrack? She always seemed so cool. Stupid Gaeta has to ruin everyone. Plus, he sent his boyfriend to the brig. They are totally on a time out.

This is the first episode of the second half to provoke my interest and enthuse me to the point of debating for hours. A longer post is clearly in the offing, but, yeah, way to go, show. Way to not forget everything and start actually doing shit with the precious little time we have left!

(Spoilers may lurk in comments!)

Comments

[habiliments.livejournal.com]

I liked it, I liked it, I liked it!

.... but not Racetrack. I'm not sure I buy that. Nor, for that matter, Seelix playing the bait for them fucking up Anders. (Oh, Anders! Where is your wife?) And I'm still having a hard time with what appears to be EVERY SINGLE MARINE following Gaeta (I had this problem last week with his mess hall scene, too).

But man. To see Starbuck relishing a fight and Adama with a gun in both hand? Really made my viewing experience exceptional.

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

Seelix actually made total sense because she and Anders have history and she's sort of an asshole about Cylons, so I buy that she would turn her dislike and disappointment into ugly anger like she did. And it was effective because clearly Anders knew she had a crush on him. I liked that scene a lot because he was still trying to be nice to her and basically apologize for being a Cylon and for just not being that into her...when he got jumped from behind. That was almost as brutal as Helo being thumped and Lee getting gut-checked out of nowhere. (Brutal surprises are way worse than just brutality.)

The shoot-out in CIC where the young private was killed showed that some marines were on Adama's side, and he had to call them off. You'd think there'd be more than that, though. However, I could maybe sorta understand marines tending to err against Cylon-lovers since they're the ones who tend to die in Cylon-on-person interaction, like way back when the heavy raider actually dropped Cylons onto Galactica.

And, sweet jesus, YES was it good to see Apollo and Starbuck again. Like they'd been when they were both awesome. Her shooting the people menacing Lee and then the two of them going around being soldierly again? LOVE.

[negativeq.livejournal.com]

Thanks for clarifying that the woman who baited Anders was Seelix. I thought it was, but wasn't sure.

Her liking Anders made sense in retrospect - she was a hardcore rebel on New Caprica, and she did give Tory and Anders a dirty look while hooking up. We know she hates Cylons, so any affection she had for Anders would turn sour really fast.

As for Racetrack, I don't recall her being Cylon sympathetic either.

I suppose this is why I am okay with the mutiny. Since Cain, I had been wondering how the former Pegasus crew had been coping with having Cylon allies in the fleet, and unrepentant Cylon fraternizers (HELLO HELO) in top ranks. That's gotta chafe. (Do they even know Gina shot Cain, or how Cloud 9 exploded?) I am glad that Apollo FINALLY acknowledged that Cylons eradicated humanity, so accepted their help is asking for a hell of a lot.

Finally - the original Cylon attack was conducted by hacking into and compromising the human fleet. And let us not forget their brand of help on New Caprica. IT MAKES SENSE for the marines to balk at having Cylon tech added to the Galactica.

Why would they trust the Cylons? They're known to be clingy, obsessive, yet change loyalties FAST, especially from what we have seen of the 8s. You can argue that humans do that too, but humans are not all mentally linked with shared memories. And now that Cylons don't seem to need humans to perpetuate themselves, they may have no reason to keep human breeding stock around anymore.

Dave called me a racists for being so anti-Cylon, and even dared to compare it to Jews and Germans. I don't think a comparison in human history is valid here. Generations have passed since WWII. I am of German descent - I have NO MEMORY of the Holocost. Dave is Jewish, and he has no first hand experience from the camps either. We have nothing to do with it. Cylons don't have generation gaps - they share the memories, and operate as a collective. There are no innocent Cylons who are uninvolved with the attack. Every single Cylon who may be offering to install tech into the fleet was ACTIVELY PARTICIPATING in the invasion.

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

My disappointment in Racetrack stems mostly from the fact that, Hot Dog and that other asshole Pegaus pilot (the one who bitched Starbuck out) aside, she's like the only person I know is even a pilot any more.

The interesting piece about who from Pegasus did or didn't fall in with the mutiny is that it has a bias against people who are used to taking orders. What I mean is that the Pegasus people who are sorta freer to do what they want so long as they kill enemies (pilots, marines, etc.) were with Gaeta; but the deckhand who came over from Pegasus got killed because he wasn't going to buck orders. In fact, I think he might have been one of those who was forcibly drafted into Pegasus by Admiral Cain (if I remember the episode where we learned that correctly, he was the one who told some people about that). Which means that, yes, there is a legacy of Cain's people but that not all of Pegasus people are going to be amenable to the sort of shit Cain's people got/get up to.

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

The Cylons are a special case, but assumptions about them have changed. Yes, all the 2, 6, 8 models, Athena included, are responsible for the attacks on the colonies. To an individual, the original seven models of Cylons are soldiers, meaning that every single one of them signed off on genocide. This was an argument I made a long time ago when Helo stopped Adama from sending infected Cylons back among the rest. He said that would be genocide, too. He's not entirely wrong--humanity WOULD have wiped out all of Cylon kind (that they or we knew about)--but since ALL of Cylon kind are soldiers, well, that's what we call "war." There are no innocent Cylons, no conscientious objectors, no children, no old people at that point (that weren't created that way in Cavil's case).

Except now there are, but humanity doesn't know that. The Final Five were innocent Cylons as far as we know. We have no proof that they were sleeper agents, as the Fleet widely assumes them to have been. They were frequently doing whatever it took to keep humanity alive, including killing Cylons. Barring some revelation about the Five that shows they wanted the other seven to attack, the Final Five are innocent Cylons as far as genocide is concerned. However, the Fleet doesn't believe that to be the case because, hello, have been burned by sleepers before and too many of the Final Five were REALLY close to power, too close for comfort.

So the picture is muddled. Did the Cylons commit genocide and are still stained with that? Absolutely. But not all Cylons--we make exceptions for the rehabilitated and the ones who weren't making those decisions far as we know (I have a really hard time imagining that Col. Tigh was assisting to sponsor a genocide forty years down the road when he was fighting the first Cylon war). The issue of what to do with them now that half of them are not a threat and are being hunted themselves (not to mention are mortal) becomes a decision about what do you do to war criminals who honestly repent what they did, even if that repentance is as much because they're helpless and hunted, same as you are? It's not an easy question to answer.

I would also avoid seeking real-world comparisons with Dave. It's just inflammatory and sort of a moot point since the histories are very different. Besides which, a better comparison would be the US and the USSR in WWII, not necessarily Jews and Germans. We accepted the USSR as an ally despite their initial peace accord with the Axis powers because the Axis turned on them and started killing their people. Did we prosecute the USSR for carving up Poland, thus sending millions of Jews to their deaths? No, we didn't. But this isn't a great analogy either because, again, the sci-fi aspect of the Cylons really does not allow for real-world analogues.

[wellgull.livejournal.com]

Did the Cylons commit genocide and are still stained with that?

Here's the thing -- the thing that the humans on the show unfortunately cannot understand, but that I think the narrative does present as The Way It Is -- the Cylons did not have any conception of what committing genocide on the humans meant. They (at the time) did not know death. They did not, for the most part, know humanity. They (depending on which retcon you follow) were either following instructions from God, or believed that they had a permanent and irresolvable security concern; thus, they committed an act they didn't understand with motives they considered substantive.

They have since realized that they were completely incorrect. The experience on New Caprica, as well as the subsequent experiences showing that human and cylon should coexist, have proven this to a lot of the Cylon models. Can forgiveness be possible? Well... it doesn't matter if it's realistic; it HAS to be, or humanity is doomed. An alliance with half the Cylon fleet makes the humans strong enough to survive. Not having that alliance means they're doomed.

Moreover, from the moment the Cylon alliance is formed, there can be no turning back. Having chosen to trust the Cylons, the humans must trust them completely. The Cylons have HAD the chance to finish the genocidal job, if they wished; if the Cylons currently with the fleet were allied with the rest and going to turn on them, then they could easily have done so in every one of the nine days since Earth. They have perfect jump coordinates, and we've seen what an ambush can do; if a strike was going to come, it would have come by now...

I'm still working out my feelings on this, because I know exactly what my emotional response to all this is, but I haven't yet figured out what the underlying motivations might be. I'd like to think they're in the logic of the show, but I could be misinterpreting myself there.

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

I don't disagree on any one point. The fact that trust must be absolute between Cylons and humans was demonstrated in Natalie's revelation about the Final Five: keeping any plans to force the hand of your allies, with all the ugliness between you and them, is exactly what no one can do if the alliance is to survive and opinions are to change. (Or, at least, mellow.) Basically, Natalie realized they were still acting like enemies when they bartered for protection in exchange for the Hub, and that if both sides did so (they were), the alliance would go nowhere. Ironically, that's why Natalie's murder was unavenged--if you punish back and forth, back and forth, there's no way for the alliance to survive, much less humanity. (This is also why the 8 who killed the humans on the raptor in the miniseries--and Gaeta, who killed her in turn--was not punished. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.)

I understand the problem with emotional versus logical impulses on this one. I think Lee was probably closest to spelling it out in this last episode, where he took advantage of the network that Tyrol pretty much magicked out of thin air but was still incredibly resentful at being put in this situation by Cylons in the first place. Because, when it comes down to it, that's what most humans believe: regardless of what they have done since the attacks, the Cylons attacked without mercy first. Emotionally resonant thinking and feeling, but almost assuredly wrong from a logical standpoint since the fact was the Cylons may have been provoked (if you follow that retcon). There's also the experiences of the Final Five which suggest Cylons were attacked thousands of years ago, possibly by the 13th colonists who left Earth and founded the colonies (in a total reversal of scripture which has the 13th tribe separating to go to Earth rather than leaving it).

However, all that is supposition and knowledge known only to a few and not necessarily provable. And humanity probably isn't interested in trying to acknowledge that maybe they had a hand in bringing about their own doom. They are capable of only looking that sort of truth in the face so much, you know?

[wellgull.livejournal.com]

she was a hardcore rebel on New Caprica

This confused me -- I thought that there was something about how the last of Anders' rebel band died at one point a few seasons ago? The last people who'd seen him launching attacks on the Cylons?

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

That's funny, I don't even remember Seelix being on New Caprica. Regardless, you're right wellgull. The last of the resistance fighters (that we know of) who knew Anders from Caprica died on the basestar. (That would be Jean Barolay, who is very easily confused for Seelix.) Whether Seelix was resistance fighting on New Caprica or not, I can't say.

[kent-allard-jr.livejournal.com]

I hold Adama responsible for the whole mess, along with Roslin too. He may be right on the merits of the Cylon jump drive, but like it or not, Zarek is the acting president. I can sympathize with Roslin's desire to leave politics but, if so, she had a responsibility to transfer power to Zarek or whoever else.

[negativeq.livejournal.com]

I agree.

If Adama and Roslin wanted to pretend their government is not a military dictatorship or at best an oligarchy, then they should have used the proper channels. Roslin should have formally stepped down. (And wasn't Lee somehow the new President at the end of Season 3? Such nonsense.)

IF the fleet is still supposed to be a democracy, then Zarek is correct. The rights of the fleet are being trampled on. The captains of the ships should have a say on the jump drive.

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

Yes, Lee was President while Roslin was in Cylon hands because through some legal hand-waving, it was made clear to the political arm of government that Adama would never work with Zarek. Thus precipitating Zarek's resentment and Lee's being the odd-man-out on the Quorum because he basically waltzed into being interim President for no reason other than it was THE ONLY WAY to get the military to pay attention to the government.

The thing is that this show makes an argument that a military-supported dictatorship is the only government capable of keeping a people alive under times of war. Our sympathies should lie with Zarek's thinking--that democracy is important even at the cost of a few lives. However, because the show constantly casts Zarek as the villain, the "right" choice becomes a sacrifice of liberty for the sake of our safety. Which is a bizarre sort of logic for a show that was created during a government that exercised that logic to disastrous ends.

[wellgull.livejournal.com]

Our sympathies should lie with Zarek, except that he is intentionally cast as a heavy -- we can never trust that he sincerely believes in democracy rather than in his own power, and even the other mutineers (Gaeta, fercrissakes) are troubled by the way he immediately adopts violence and brutality against non-cylons.

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

Our sympathies should lie with Zarek, except that he is intentionally cast as a heavy -- we can never trust that he sincerely believes in democracy rather than in his own power, and even the other mutineers (Gaeta, fercrissakes) are troubled by the way he immediately adopts violence and brutality against non-cylons.

Which is why I say the show supports the dictatorial policies because the best they can muster to make the argument for democracy is Tom frakkin' Zarek? If he's the best, imagine how lousy the rest are!

[wellgull.livejournal.com]

The captains of the ships should have a say on the jump drive.

Exactly. The Galactica should have one installed, then schedule jumps as fast as is permitted by the Cylon drives. The rest of the fleet can then choose to be completely exposed to the remaining Cylons, or have the drive installed so it can keep up.

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

Except that that is also a false choice and one made without the safety of humanity involved. The only way Adama can sell this technology is by harping on the fact that they are all still being hunted and all he wants to do is save people.

Basically, he can't convince the Fleet he's forcing the FTL upgrades to save the human race if he's willing to decimate the human race even further by leaving half behind (or more, there were tens of ships refusing the upgrade).

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

The problem is really Roslin's fault because she peaced out on decisions about this vis a vis the Quorum even when everybody was going "Hey, Zarek might be a problem about this shit, YOU NEED TO DO SOMETHING YOU ARE STILL THE PRESIDENT." We got into kinda a shouting match over the fact that women on this show bear the burden of being wrong/responsible for problems moreso than men. I maintain that Roslin precipitated this because she went, "Fuck work!" and didn't bother to set her affairs in order before did. From there, Adama had no political resources other than his son to try and sell what was a survival issue--i.e. the Fleet reeeeeeally needs better jump drives--so he had to make it a military issue. As before, when Tigh ordered martial law, this was bound not to go well, especially with Cylons thrown into the mix.

So he made the mistake of trying to get things done, but at least he tried. Roslin? Probably ready to be riding the chamalla express again before she'd lift a finger. Not until people were literally dying (her lover among them, so she thought) did she wake her ass up. Sooooo not cool.

Zarek

[(Anonymous)]

One thing that confuses me is you keep saying we should be empathizing with Zarek and his policies because he represents an elected government. However

1) When Adama showed him the folder with the evidence of embezzlement Zarek didn't even look at it to confirm it was correct. He wasn't outraged or surprised. Thus, even if Adama's folder was just laundry lists, Zarek's reaction implies that he actually is corrupt. Why would a corrupt politician keep our empathy?

2) Elected governments are not the only alternative nor are they necessarily the most effective alternative. Not to sound like a bad American or anything but when you elect the wrong person (ala New Caprica) things go to shit.

3) Zarek is flat out wrong in this situation. The fleet has to travel together, thus they all need the same jump capacity. If we accept the premise that the fleet is still being chased by the 1s, 4s, and 5s then having faster FTL technology is really important. If some of the fleet can go farther than others then Galactica can't effectively protect them all, making the upgrade a military matter. Even if they aren't being chased, this is still true; they all need the same capacity. You can't upgrade some and not others.

--Emily

Re: Zarek

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

Oh good, you're still talking to me even though I turn into a fannish monster when things piss me off. Good sign!

Zarek argues for ideals that he doesn't always meet himself, but the ideals he argues for are ones that, in the situation Battlestar Galactica places humanity, would be the morally right ones. For example, he found fault with Laura Roslin taking away rights in a time of war. In our real world at the same time, we were complaining about just that--about Bush curbing civil liberties in the name of national security. The show has a little more leeway because it is literally dealing with humanity at the brink, but the essential arguments that Zarek make are the morally correct ones.

Granted, making the moral decision is different from the one that is best, ultimately, for the survival of the Fleet. Improving the FTL drives of the Fleet would benefit the remainder of humanity, but doing so without humanity's consent (and using some questionably peaceful contractors to boot) only leads to resentment. Honestly, Adama and Roslin would have been better served going, "You don't want the new FTL drives? Fine. Have fun keeping up with us." Only then they'd be monsters. Zarek is taking an impractical stance, one that could endanger humanity, but it's the sort of personal-liberty-loving stance that you can imagine being popular with a people who haven't had any input in the way the Fleet is run since they voted for Baltar. (Again, look at how well that turned out!)

As for Zarek's supposed corruption: it's a personal choice, and I can't necessarily prove it, but I believe that the file was fake. Tigh mutters something about it being filled with laundry reports or something (and what a great waste of the last bits of paper they have THAT is), as you mentioned. What I choose to believe is that Zarek assumed--rightly--that Adama was attempting to frame him and ruin the only bargaining chip he has to get people to listen to his ideas: his ruthless, pure idealism. If he's even a little tarnished (not including that whole terrorism thing), he has no ground from which to argue about making the moral decision. I have heard rumblings that Zarek was also put in charge of the black market in the Fleet (or at least assigned to keep an eye on it), which could be used to smear him (unfairly, given that he would have taken over only by request of the administration that wanted to keep an eye on it). Either way, through no fault of his own, Zarek knew he could be destroyed. He needed to go around Adama's bluff. And lo, he did.

Re: Zarek

[(Anonymous)]

The complexity of Battlestar!

Where you see a potential frameup, I see guilt. If Adama was going to frame Zarek, presumably he would have created the false evidence before the conversation in the brig. To prove that he could. And it would have been convincing and Zarek would have protested, and perhaps even gained support by saying "I'm being framed."

However, what leads me to believe in his guilt is that he didn't make a big stink about it. He didn't make any stink about it, and didn't even check the papers.

E