trinityvixen | Question

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I was thinking about my earlier post (in which I objectified at least two men and hinted at a history of doing so to many, many others) and the oncoming onslaught of superhero movies (our taste for which is surprisingly still rapacious). Marvel has no less than a dozen movies already assumed: Iron Man 2 and, very probably, 3; Thor (with Thor 2 less likely but not impossible); Captain America (its sequel potential somewhere between that of Iron Man 3 and Thor 2); The Avengers; Wolverine 2; Deadpool; and some variety of X-Men-related films--the long idle Magneto movie and the more active X-Men: First Class.

DC has, to its credit, tried to step up production of the next Christopher Nolan Batman film and is making noise about another Superman film (though they won't film anything until the lawsuits are settled, I'm sure). And, while they do that, Green Lantern is already filming. (Seriously, someone took a shitty quality photo of Ryan Reynolds on set with what looked like a smudge on one of his fingers and the Lantern fans exploded with paroxysms of glee that he was wearing the ring.) The Flash may be getting another script treatment. Don't ask about Wonder Woman, though.

But, no, wait, let's ask about Wonder Woman for a second. Or, rather, since I don't want to hear the bullshit about how they can't figure out how to make Wonder Woman interesting enough to justify a movie, let's focus on what really bugged me as I looked at the Marvel line-up. Forget DC for a moment. I need comics fans to answer (riddle) me this: Who is Marvel's Wonder Woman?

I'm not trying to pick at wounds here, though it is a sore subject for me, personally. I really just could not think of any grand dame of the Marvel universe who stands on the sort of equal footing with her male colleagues that Wonder Woman does in the DC universe. The best I could come up with were the obviously-derivative-versions-of-male-characters, sometimes-members of the Avengers, like Spider-Woman or She-Hulk. Thinking about female Marvel characters, I immediately thought of X-Men, but they're hardly any of them anything like Wonder Woman. You can think of the iconic Marvel characters without ever touching on any X-Man or X-Woman. So the X-Women cannot be said to be iconic enough to Wonder Woman, for all that they are, by far, the most interesting women in the Marvel universe.

So, comics nerds better versed than I: am I wrong? Is there an iconic Marvel character who is on par with DC's Wonder Woman and I'm just not thinking of her?

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There isn't.

When they ran DC vs. Marvel, they paired her up against Storm. (Superman vs. Hulk, Batman vs. Captain America, Spider-Man vs. Superboy, Wolverine vs. Lobo) When the best they have is an oft-marginalized team-book member, they've got nothing.

I was hoping you would ring in on this one. You're what I would consider an authority.

Storm and the X-Men are an interesting deviation from the model heroes, even the model hero teams that preceded them because instead of being individuals brought together (in the JLA or the Avengers), they were always parts of a whole. The X-Men exist first, the mutants making up the team are secondary. Which is why Storm, who would absolutely be my choice for highest profile non-male-derivative Marvel woman, is still nowhere near Wonder Woman's league.

Part of what frustrates me most about this is that the X-Men, especially in their second configuration--with Storm, Nightcrawler, Wolverine, Colossus, etc.--were and are fairly diverse. The female characters, too, were often way more interesting than the male characters. I'm not going to argue whether they're "Strong Female Characters(TM)," because that's an annoying diversion, but I'd say it's fair to say that, Wolverine excluded, they're the most popular X-characters. So they're awesome. They're just not icons.

The X-Men are an iconic team (they're the archetype for the "saving a world that hates us" trope). Wolverine is an iconic character from that team because he's the archetypal representation of the '90s grim-and-gritty antihero. None of the female character have that or something similar to it.

Wonder Woman, for good or ill, is THE archtypal female superhero.

There are very few "minority" superheroes of note when you get right down to it. You're right that virtually all of them are white men. (They're also virtually all Americans with hazy Jewish or Christian backgrounds.)

Storm is probably the most well-known non-white character, followed probably by Static (who had his own cartoon show) Cyborg (Teen Titans), Steel (who got a crappy movie and appeared in DCAU Cartoons), or maybe Green Lantern John Stewart (played up in DCAU cartoons and toylines).

Asian or Hispanic characters? Average man on the street probably couldn't name any. I can only come up with a handful, and they ask me to run comic trivia panels.

Minority superheroes seem to pop up much in the same way that female heroes do. That is, they represent some offshoot of a character that was already around that was a white male. I think the Green Lantern is a good example. Well, we have this concept hero, who doesn't have to be one person...I know! We can have a minority hero! Woo! Black Superman, you say? How about Steel?

The X-Men have gotten better. They have both Asian and Hispanic characters in their books. Of course, the less said about the "exotic otherness" of Psylocke, the better. (Plus! She's actually a British white chick underneath! Bonus!)

Black Panther. Black Lightning. Forge. Falcon. Thunder and Lightning. Mr. Terrific. Tigra. Talisman and Shaman.

Sorry, couldn't help it. :)

You're right that virtually all of them are white men. (They're also virtually all Americans with hazy Jewish or Christian backgrounds.)

I guess when all your established Superheroes are from the "American Male Good, American Female Good Wife, Other Whites maybe useful, Everyone else the Enemy" era it doesn't leave a lot of room for newer characters from diverse backgrounds making it in.

The already iconic characters can have a certain amount of shift (such as Wonder Woman going from "Bondage fantasy eye candy hero" to a three dimensional, strong female character), and a few outliers like the current Green Lantern manage to sneak in, but for the most part it's a case of "We have our iconic characters who have been iconic for more than half a decade, the ball is rolling and good luck moving it"

I feel the need to point out that Wonder Woman was created to fulfill male bondage fantasy. So I think it's on shaky feminist grounds from the get-go.

I'm not interested in arguing that point. If I started down the road of, "Sure you have a female character, but..." I'd never come back. There literally isn't a single comic book character who isn't compromised in the way you've mentioned. Maybe it was being brought low by rape/baby/romance, but in some way or another, all female characters in comics are reduced, either at their beginning or after, to their sex.

It's irrelevant to this particular thing that's bugging me because it's not the biography but the stature of a prominent female character that is lacking at Marvel. Wonder Woman, whatever her beginnings, belongs to that ideal of the DC pantheon. If you name the DC Gods, you will name plenty of men--Batman and Superman will always be first--but I guarantee that most comics fans and, importantly, non-fans will probably name Wonder Woman before they get to anyone else. (Which is why Aquaman is a joke, I guess--he doesn't even come before the woman!) She's part of an axis at DC that, again, whatever compromise existed to bring her about, is presumed superior, unquestioned.

And Marvel? Does not have that. Their entire stable of well-known characters consists of white men...and the X-Men. Who are a team, as I said above, and function as one unit not as characters. Their entry into the Marvel Pantheon would, to my impression of how they are seen, be rather like the three-in-one Fates than a God/Goddess in their own right. Except for Wolverine (HE IS ALWAYS THE EXCEPTION), who, you'll note is another white male.

That *is* a good question.

Storm would have been my first answer too, barring your caveat. And Jean Grey is up there as well.

Sue Storm Richards is certainly not on Wonder Woman's level power-wise, but I'd argue that in terms of familiarity and authority she may be--she is the First Lady of Marvel's First Family of superheroes, after all. Everyone knows, respects, and likes Sue--and if that one storyline where she went evil is any indication, she's actually pretty bad-ass when she sets aside all those annoying little moral compunctions of hers.

Wanda Maximoff (the Scarlet Witch) is another strong female, and was never an X-Man though she is a mutant. The Wasp is another who's widely known and respected.

The best way to think about it is to close your eyes and go, "Who's the superhero?" If it comes up male, try again. Guaranteed, you'll go though some twenty heroes before another woman besides Wonder Woman comes up. That's testament not only to Marvel's failure but all comics' failures. We think superhero, we think Superman. (Or Batman. It depends on whether you're the glass-half-full or the glass-half-empty-and-also-psychotic person.) Force yourself to think female superhero, you get Wonder Woman, and that's a full stop.

And then you might go, "Oh, and, uh, Storm. I guess. Maybe Phoenix." The Invisible Woman's a nice thought, but I think "is the ambassador for supers" does not speak well to her counting as the archetype female hero on her own. It implies that she's First Lady, as you say, not the President. We're looking for the female president. Sue's just not it. Nor is Storm or Wanda. That's just it. No matter how powerful they are--I mean, the Phoenix? Is pretty goddamned powerful--they're not "it." They're not Wonder Woman.

I think you're starting from a falsehood, or at least missing/ignoring certain facts. Yes, Superman and Batman are two of the three people come up with the minute you say "superhero." The other being Spider-Man. But in part that's because they've been around long enough to become cultural icons. They've had the constant exposure that others have lacked.

But if you grew up reading Image, for example, you might feel differently. Or Wildstorm. Hell, read Wildstorm enough and the question "female superhero" automatically comes back with "Jenny Sparks" and several others right behind her. Read Image enough and you'll get "Fathom and Witchblade." We can also take a step to the left and get "Promethea." In the same way, the answer to your first question might be "Kevin Matchstick" or "Prime" or "Mr. Majestic" or "Savage Dragon."

Your answers apply for our age group, with our reading backgrounds. We grew up on Marvel and DC. The field has changed a bit, though those two are still the hoary old eminences. It doesn't mean there aren't female superheroes equal to Wonder Woman in stature. It just means they haven't had almost seventy years of exposure.

I'm not saying the field isn't skewed toward male heroes. It is. But I think there are female heroes comparable to Wonder Woman. They just haven't become iconic yet.

Tsk tsk, you're the one getting bogged down here, not I, sir, not I. You're right--longevity contributes to Wonder Woman's ability to stand on top as the icon among all female superheroes. No argument from me there. Though I would point out that it's relative longevity that matters. Wonder Woman came along later in the game than either Bats or Supes, but she's been there for the lion's share of DC's existence. So someone like Spider-Man is not less iconic for not having been around as long as Superman. So a Marvel heroine who, if she exists, that would be on par with Wonder Woman wouldn't have to have been around forever and ever either.

The point, though, is not that I can name different female supers from you and my ability to rattle off names (see my response to your Babes of DC comment!). It's that I or anyone regardless of their reading--in fact, even if they've never read a comic book--has heard of Wonder Woman and would, 99% of the time, be able to identify her. There is no other female superhero. Not with her stature. There just isn't.

Do some female heroes come into vogue? Sure. Witchblade. Phoenix. Catwoman. (Who? Not a hero, so much, to my mind, but she has reformed, mostly.) Catwoman's as old as Batman, practically, but even she isn't on Wonder Woman's level. <lj user=ecmyers" has a good point: if something doesn't immediately come to you, chances are good it's not there.

Superman: 1932.
Batman: 1939.
Wonder Woman: 1941.
Spider-Man: 1962.

Wonder Woman is on par with Superman and batman iconically because she's been around almost as long as they have--same era. Spidey's twenty years younger than her, and thirty from Supes--the fact that he's almost as big is kudos to him. A Marvel heroine would have to be at least as old as Spidey to be as well-known as Wonder Woman. And probably longer.
The only one who has is Sue, and you've discounted her. :)

I think we're arguing two different things here. Is Wonder Woman the only iconic female superhero? Absolutely. But is she the only one with the qualities to become iconic? Difficult to argue, since time will tell, but I don't think so. And does that prove there aren't good female superheroes? Not at all, just as Batman and Superman being the top dogs doesn't prove there aren't good male superheroes. They're still the first and foremost, that's all.

I don't recognize most of the names or faces on the Marvel Women Wikipedia Page, so I guess not. If you have to think about it at all, then it's already evident there's no one of the same standing as Wonder Woman.

That's pretty much it, isn't it? If you don't say, "Female superhero...go!" and come up with something immediately, it's not there. "Female superhero...go!" Wonder Woman! "And?" Uh...

But how many of these do you recognize right off the bat?

http://rondomingue.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/dc_babes.jpg

:)

Hmm... 7, maybe 8 :P

Oh, make that 9. I missed the thing Harley's holding!

All except one, and that one is really embarrassing 'cause it's the only woman of color in the line up.

It's Catwoman, Oracle, Zatanna, Black Canary, Power Girl, Wonder Woman, Supergirl, Batwoman, [one I don't know], Poison Ivy, and Harley Quinn.

I recognize her, I just don't remember her name...

It is, perhaps, significant that of this group of, what, 11? There are no less than half that are Batman-affiliated. Batgirl-as-was Oracle, Batwoman, Catwoman, Poison Ivy, and Harley Quinn are all definitely creatures of the Batman-universe. None have really gotten out of his shadow, save perhaps--purrrrrhaps--Catwoman. Wasn't Zatanna originally introduced in Batman comics, too? Aside from mystery woman, I think only Wonder Woman and Black Canary are their own leads, but I'm not sure about Black Canary.

Of course, I recognize most of them from the DC Universe animated series, especially Justice League.

The person you're missing is Vixen.

Zatanna is a legacy character, daughter of Golden Age mystery man Zatara. She was first introduced in a series of Justice League of America stories.

Which is pretty funny, given your LJ name.
It's Vixen. :)

Surprisingly I have an easier time thinking up female superheros in the Marvel Setting than I do in DC. Seriously, Wonder Woman is the first and only DC hero to come to mind at first thought (with Starfire, Raven, Black Canary, Batgirl, and Zatanna coming in with more effort). But Marvel I think of Jean Gray, Storm, Susan Richards, She-Hulk, the Scarlet Witch, Marvel Girl, more recently Emma Frost all at first thought with a whole lot more coming in at second thought. While I admit a bit of bias towards marvel here, the marvel characters as a whole seem better thought out than the DC ones outside the "saving people" story arcs.

Marvel Girl is Jean Gray, no? You might be thinking of Ms Marvel/Binary/Warbird. I think she's rather badass myself but I'm biased by how useful she is in the Marvel Ultimate Alliance games.

I agree with you, when I think Marvel I come up with the first four or so on your list easily, while with DC Wonder Woman might come to mind first but after that all I can think of are female counterparts to male heroes: Batgirl, Supergirl, Hawkgirl.

It really is dependent on which cartoon shows were big when you were the right age to watch them. Your age bracket hits the X-Men cartoon, so the first characters you think of are X-Men. Ask someone a couple years younger who hit the Superman-Batman Adventures era at the right age, you'll get a different answer. Heck, there'll probably be a brief of real age bracket who'll come up with Starfire and Raven first, because they watched the Teen Titans cartoon.

Well it also helped that the first few comics I ever owned (and at a real young age) were x-men and dazzler ^_^ So of course x-men come to mind first. But in terms of TV, and this really dates me, Live action Spiderman and various Superman related cartoons were my first exposure (including the early justice league cartoons and the painful to remember Krypto the Superdog show). But given things in my family background, and the x-men's mutant rights themes paralleling civil rights, the x-men came to be far more memorable ^_^

Your right, I was thinking Ms. Marvel/She-Thing/Binary/Warbird ^_^

Does Marvel really have iconic heroes on that level in the first place, though? Who's the Marvel Superman or Batman? (Spider-Man and Wolverine, I guess... neither of which have anywhere near the iconic pop-culture status of the DC characters)

Spider-Man does. If you were making a top-ten list of iconic, recognizable superheroes, the first three would be Superman, Batman, and Spider-Man, probably in that order.

There's a good point about DC icons versus Marvel ones here. The DC characters are very, well, Freudian, with the Super(ego)man, the Batman(id), etc. Marvel characters, tending to be much more grounded and human might not have that same intrinsically understood appeal. But they do still have icons, as others have pointed out. Captain America is a good one, too. It's one people recognize pretty readily and who has his own pop-culture idiom. I mean, we think of moral crusader, we may think of him in some fashion sooner than we do Superman. (Superman is invoked by those who seek to do the impossible. Captain America is more about what is right and accessibly so.)

Wow, must be a cultural difference there :)
Superman for me is "Big, dumb, useless brute who can't solve anything that doesn't involve the 'hit it, then hit it again' strategy"
Cap America is "Out of his time zealot who wins far more fights than he should do thanks to the "AMERICA!! FUCKYEAH!!" factor"

Of course, I'm also the person who gets most of their 'mainstream' comic knowledge from the JLU cartoons, vauge memories of 80s cartoons, live action movies, tvtropes & wikipedia pages since I can rarely manage to actually pry comics away from people.
Watchmen, Authority, Identity Crisis, yep, read them. Superman? Err.. yeah, I read one comic about him back when I was about ten, and that's about it.

Perhaps I'm just too cynical for my own good =)

You estimate of Superman is right on IMO ^_^

Cap..... well so-so. A lot of his big baddies are more the megalomaniacs with 1/2 a brain so the lack of brawn in Cap (as compared to say the Hulk or Thor) is ok. Cartoons of him rarely do him proper justice. But one reason to really like him..... his main combat moves involve a very good working knowledge of trig and material science ^_^ Seriously, he bounces that shield off a dozen or so surfaces to strike a structural weak point in some vehicle or giant robot. I would so want Cap as a partner in various games of pool ^_^

That should read "your estimate of Superman is right on IMO"

PS: Cap playing Ultimate Frisbee.... That must have helped pay for the Avengers equipment more than once with the PPV rights ^_^

Ahh, and here lies the difference in our experiences :)
Your knowledge of Cap comes from watching his cartoons etc, and thus getting the 'day to day' cap.
I have vague memories of some cartoons, and wikipedia/tvtropes readings, which gives me his.. larger accomplishments rather than the norm. Such as him taking out the Hulk in hand to hand combat. I'm sorry, but that should not be possible ><

Re: Sups, I did like seeing one of the JLA "alternate universe" episodes where the alternate JL's Flash was killed, and they.. went off the "Hero" track a little, and started actually using permanent methods against Supervillains.

Current reality Sups spent the first section of the episode destroying a dozen city blocks while in a fight against.. can't remember who, some massive blob like guy who was almost as strong and invulnerable to physical harm as Sups himself.
He's eventually captured.

Alternate JL wanders in, captures the current ones (even Batman can't escape, because alternate Batman had already thought of everything Batman might do), and takes over, without the citizens knowing (other than noting on the costume changes).
Super strong blob guy breaks free of prison.
Alternate Sups shows up.
"So Superman! Time for round two?!"
"Hrm.. not this time" *Lobotomises villain with heat vision*

Sups really is only fun when he's evil.. oh, or when he has a "World of Cardboard" speech, that's occasionally fun too.

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