More X-Men musings

[trinityvixen]

I never seem to want to write fanfic for any fandom that ended on a good note. If X-Men 3 had closed out the cinema branch of the franchise in a better way, I might have let it rest. Instead, we got Brett Ratner's passable-only-to-the-masses film that basically massacred the characterizations that had finally found their footing in X2 and butchered the very ideals that the X-Men and the Brotherhood of Mutants stood for (yes, the Brotherhood has some morals, just not many or many that make sense).

So, of course, I'm left going, "If only..." and visualizing these scenes that would have been much more dramatically satisfying than a lot of the ones that made it into the movie.

For instance:
1) Mystique confronting Magneto, the both without their powers.
Mystique has got every right to be pissed off. This girl puts up with a lot of shit to get her boss the things he wants, and she doesn't complain. That he abandons her instead of keeping her around to fuel his rage at what the humans did to her is totally out of character. She was a mutant, one of the most cunning women ever to walk the face of the earth, and a loyal supporter; Magneto doesn't give up on his followers, as evidenced by how far out of his way he went to recruit someone who could help him find her again. I totally want her to meet up with the now-powerless Magneto in the park and throw his weakness in his face. Without his powers, he's nothing, not a threat at all. Without hers, she's still savage and dangerous and pissed off. I think the scene would work best if it took place immediately after the last one in the movie, with Magneto just realizing that his powers are coming back. Mystique would be closer to a complete return to normal, having been dosed with less of the cure much earlier than Magneto. It would be that much more bitter a defeat if Mystique killed him not only when he was weak but when he was so close to being normal again. Oh, and she would kill him. No way would Raven pass up that chance. :)

2) The X-kids stepping up to full X-Men status
I wonder what the ceremony would be, how they would then turn around have to train the next generation of their peers. It would be extremely difficult to engender respect, even with their practical experience, when Bobby, Kitty, Rogue, and Colossus are all barely older than the new recruits (or, in X3's Kitty's case, when all the recruits are actually older). The film set up Bobby Drake to occupy the position of leadership after the old guard retires--which, if you're a comic book fan is so backwards ironic, it makes me laugh just thinking about it. And Rogue clearly is to be a noncombatant (in the Danger Room scene, she is only a Leech on Colossus). The four of them are interesting choices for the first set of new X-Men. Jubes isn't among their number, nor is Terry Cassidy, or even the fast-running kid from the first movie. Instead, you have the sort of party gamers would envy--the range fighter (Iceman), the warrior (Colossus), the defender (Kitty), and the reserve trooper (Rogue, I suppose, could just jump in to take the powers of a fallen teammate or distracted adversary). It's not the most offensive team the X-Men have ever weilded, but pretty darn effective. I wonder how much of that was actually Cyclops' doing, too--despite the movies doing their best to make him seem whiney and extraneous and interfering in the true love of Jean and Logan, Scott Summers is one of the more effective tacticians ever to go to bat for the good guys in the Marvel 'verse. That ought to be addressed, yo.

3) Warren Worthington III coming out as a mutant
In a move that makes no sense, Warren seems to have been held aside by his father to the point that he enjoyed none of the sort of spoiled upbringing comics-Warren had. There's no reason that his father's embarrassment should lead him to secrete his son away from the world. They clearly had the wing-rack of comic origin (which looked a lot less ridiculous than it did in the comics, so they did a good job with that at least), so therefore had the opportunity to let Warren out as a normal child. But the Warren onscreen is a skinny, scared boy who seems afraid of people. You don't get that way if you've gone out to normal schooling, normal socializing and managed to ever fool people for any length of time that there weren't six-foot wings growing out of your back. It implies heavily that Warren was tutored privately, and kept away from people as much as possible. How would it shake things up for Worthington Labs that the CEO's son was revealed to be a mutant? It might just expose the cure for the lie it was.

So many questions to ponder...so little interest in rectifying what was wrong with that movie, I can't make myself care.

So feiran, ivy03, and I had this hilarious conversation after we saw X-Men 3 which was really an alternative, even more geeky take on an argument ivy03 had had some time previous. Basically, after seeing Pyro and Iceman duke it out, she mentioned a time when some friends of hers were trying to figure out who would win in a fight between the Human Torch and Iceman. I asked who she thought, and she answered easily "the Human Torch." I think feiran and I surprised her mightily by immediately disagreeing. I think she thought for sure that we'd have thought the same. But it's not the same, we explained--Iceman is waaaaaaay more powerful than Johnny Storm. Practically, Bobby Drake's been known to liquify air, he's made it so cold. Without oxygen to burn, the Human Torch goes out, easy-peasy.

Then I went and said, "Yeah, plus Johnny Storm got his powers from being mutated versus Bobby Drake who was born that way and who is an Omega-level mutant."

feiran piped up, "Uh, Iceman's not Omega-level." She defined Omega-level as world-affecting power, something like Magneto, Xavier, or Phoenix are capable of. I, being a total jerk ass who has to be right all the time, kept arguing the case until I went and wiki'd Iceman to find that the general consensus was that he is Omega-level. But, until I could get home to look it up, feiran and I just went back and forth trying to prove our case by saying, "I think he is" or, "I think he isn't." Which is a totally logical, perfectly normal way to win an argument, really.

We are such geeks, I think we scared ivy03 with how much we got into it.

Comments

[bigscary.livejournal.com]

"Omega Level" as I understand it, isn't about "world-affecting", but about the "metaphysical" nature of the power. Mags and Charlie aren't Omega level, but Bobby is because he is ICEman -- his powers extend to not only a becoming a being of ice, but controlling ice that he had initially nothing to do with, even to the point of inhabiting it.

I'll note that a lot of powers defined as omega level seem to include a form of functional immortality.

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

Actually, I'll argue against you there. I would say that both Xavier and Magneto have the capability to live forever at the rate they're going--they've certainly found new ways to incarnate younger, better, faster, stronger, et al.

And I think Carrie's definition is the right one. I think the capability of affecting everyone on the planet defines an Omega. Iceman's abilities are so wide-reaching and his ability to manipulate and control all moisture in addition to just ice is ridiculously powered because there isn't anything that doesn't have water in it or around it that he couldn't use (okay, maybe if he was stuck in the Sahara...but even then, only maybe).

[bigscary.livejournal.com]

Well, aside from canonical statements, Carrie's makes the most sense.

Of course, I would go with Morrison's definition, which is the one I reference above.

[viridian.livejournal.com]

For fuck's sake, this is a stupid argument.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

*breathes*

... but seriously, guys.

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

No, it's a wonderful argument! Don't you just love when geeks get together and do fandom deathmatches? I mean, who would win in a fight between the Witchblade and Darth Vader? These are things we need to know!

[viridian.livejournal.com]

CAVEMEN VS. ASTRONAUTS.

DISCUSS.

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

Clearly, the cavemen have the advantage. They will immediately challenge the astronauts.

But Neandethal vs. Planet of the Apes Ape-people? More tricky!

[bigscary.livejournal.com]

With or without equipment? What equipment? Where? To the death?

[cbreakr.livejournal.com]

is there a monolith of some kind involved in this encounter?

[ivy03.livejournal.com]

Let me just jump in to point out that the argument I was referencing that I had in college was made without any real firm understanding of comics canon, so the argument was really not based on what the comics have shown either character was capable of. We ended up just running in circles about wether fire was better than ice. So in ways, it was a hell of a lot less geeky than trinityvixen and feiran's argument, even though it did end with my friend saying, "Reality check, here. I'm Iceman, you're the Human Torch."

[slackwench.livejournal.com]

Have you ever seen liquid oxygen put on a fire? It's amazing how good an oxidizer it is.

[hslayer.livejournal.com]

I dunno, it'd almost certainly come down to whether a Nova Flame would do it. For the record, being born with a mutation or being otherwise transformed has no bearing whatsoever on power. Those who are altered like the FF, Spider-Man, or the Hulk are not even properly termed "mutants". And for what it's worth, altered human was (slightly) more powerful than mutant in the old Marvel RPG. Hell, in Secret Wars Spider-Man once wiped the floor with the entirety of the X-Men with the exception of Xavier (who finally decided to make Spidey forget what he was doing and go away).

I should just dig out my old stat binders and see if I can figure it from there. No, really, this game was SERIOUS. I have two 4-inch binders of Marvel character stats, and they released annual updates based on events from that year's comics.

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

I would love to see the "official" ruling on this.

And you're right, natural versus induced mutation doesn't matter so much--you're going to get weaker and stronger ones on both sides. But, generally speaking, a natural mutation is one that your body has worked with all your life and since most mutations are so detrimental that they abort the fetus carrying it, a mutation that produces a stable person to the point of maturity is probably very advantageous. Whereas an induced mutation is one that is not natural and means the body hasn't always been used to having it--may actually reject it in patches routinely.

So, on the average, a mutant would probably have an advantage of at least knowing his/her powers for longer, and having a body that is more stable and tolerant of it. Plus, there's the whole thing with Iceman being an Omega...

[hslayer.livejournal.com]

Well, maybe longer, maybe not, since their powers don't manifest until puberty. It quite simply boils down (no pun intended) to whether Iceman can dissipate/eliminate/whatever (I'm sure the thermodynamics don't actually work, so I won't bother) heat faster than Torch can generate it. Torch can actually get it as hot as plasma, so I don't know, but maybe. I'm not an expert on this level of detail, but like I said, when I get home I can look up what TSR and Marvel came up with on the subject.

Bear in mind those stats date to circa 1990, and a lot might have changed since then. But damn near all my knowledge of Marvel characters dates to then, too, so that's all I'm likely to be able to contribute anyway. I just finished rereading Infinity Gauntlet yet again last night....

You had to go there.....

[arcane-the-sage.livejournal.com]

Ok Bobby vs. Johnny (ice vs. fire). First off, both characters tend to hold back ( A LOT ) in the comics. So head to head in standard mode, Johny tends to win (since he place with a higher level of his power than Bobby tends to). Now if both went all out in an epic fight then Bobby is most likely to win because of his staying power (Johnny's Nova Blast, while incredibly powerful, takes up way too much of his energy). Of course how that battle would play out would depend greatly on who gets the opening shot and tactics. While yes Johnny has to worry about O2 for his flames, there have been cases in the past where Bobby can't ice things too well when the air is really dry (something Johnny could do by heating things up). Johnny's flight powers also give him a slight advantage in a drawn out fight since it provides him with a greater range of agility for dodging attacks.

Now there was a "What if..." comic where these two fought (a copy of which would be somewhere in my comic collection). Of course their fight got called on account of a rather large explosive that was about to go off). The two really are evenly matched in combat overall.

Re: You had to go there.....

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

Actually, Bobby's got the better evasion stat, to use terms you gamer-folk understand. Bobby can melt. He can reform himself out of liquid miles away if need be. And unless this fight is taking place in the Mojave Desert, Bobby's gonna be able to find water to reform. Water is a tricky substance and one that's fundamentally a part of every living thing, even the Human Torch (it's just really, really hot in his body). It gets everywhere. And it would take a lot to evaporate all the water in an area that Bobby couldn't get to.

Short version: Bobby's powers are more versatile, he's extremely powerful, even with his not having mastered the full range of his powers, and slightly smarter than the Human Torch (that I'm basing on my prejudice against Johnny Storm; I see him as the stupid kid versus the smart-kid-playing-class-clown that is Bobby Drake). He'd win.

They both hold off? I thought the Human Torch was an exhibitionist to the last.

Re: You had to go there.....

[arcane-the-sage.livejournal.com]

Flashy yes, but considering his flames can melt (if not incinerate) diamonds if he's not careful he almost always holds back when sue isn't around to protect the public. There is also the issue of his flame sheath melting away bullets (and many metals) before they can touch his skin. But last time I check (which was a while ago I admit) Bobby needed to use a device (in the form of a belt) in order not to flash freeze everyone within several meters of him. That means he has far less control of his abilities than Johnny does.

Ok after looking up both characters (see links below), it would appear that Johnny is the more agile of the two while Bobby has more staying power. I've never seen Bobby have to reconstitute himself after being melted so I can't say with a degree of certainty as to the limitation of his ability there. However given the Johny can burn away materials that are very difficult to even get to melt, it suggests that if Johnny wanted to take out Iceman he could.

Ok the issue of intellect is really tricky with both these characters. On paper it appears that Johnny is smarter. Bobby is definitely more mature, making him appear to be more refined and hence more intelligent. If you want to go on personal experiences then Johnny wins out since he tends to deal with "end of the world" to "end of the known universe" situations more frequently than Bobby does (and the X-men rarely gets caught up in non-terrestrial combat that is on the same level as the Fantastic Four).




These are both a bit out of date, but are good for a core side by side.

http://www.classicmarvel.com/cast/human_torch2.htm

http://www.classicmarvel.com/cast/iceman.htm

Re: You had to go there.....

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

Let's get dangerous...

'cause I am totally going to fight you on this.

Marvel.com rearranged their bio pages or I would have been able to do that old quick check on basic stats. It used to rank each stat from one to seven, judging on hand-to-hand, endurance, sheer power, intelligence (did you know that Reed Richards is one of like three people with an intelligence score of 7? One of the others is GALACTUS. My God, what did that storm do to his BRAIN?).

So, I'll go with what they've got listed here instead:
http://www.marvel.com/universe/Iceman
http://www.marvel.com/universe/Human_Torch_%28Johnny_Storm%29

Turns out they've both been power-amped at one point or another. I dunno who trumps in that--Johnny got his from Galactus, Bobby from Loki. Gods are pretty mighty; Galactus is the devourer of worlds. It's a toss up.

Johnny Storm can go for hours, it seems, in his flame-state. Bobby is virtually indestructable. So, they both score high on endurance. However, in that score, I say Bobby one-up's Johnny because he can be around when the Human Torch goes out. All he has to do is regenerate. If this fight takes place near a body of water about the size of a lake, the Human Torch loses, hands down. If not, I'd say there's probably wiggle room for Johnny to pull out a victory. But seeing as planet Earth would be 2/3rds water...

Been nice knowing you, Johnny.

Re: You had to go there.....

[arcane-the-sage.livejournal.com]

Ok, the only thing I have to say about the Galactus vs. Loki question is that literally Galactus could eat Loki. To put it in perspective, Galactus counts Death and Eternity (whose body is our universe) as his younger siblings. That said, any powers granted by Galactus would put a mortal on par with Loki.

For more info:
http://www.classicmarvel.com/cast/galactus.htm
http://www.classicmarvel.com/cast/loki.htm

But back to the core argument though: Bobby's regeneration power, as stated, only works so long as there is water present. The problem is that the human torch could quite litterally turn all the water in a given area into a sea of plasma (and as such making it impossible for Bobby to regenerate). Experience wise, the human torch really does have the upper hand in this match up. Plus the fact that the torch would be melting Bobby's ice constructs left and right would make it really hard for Iceman to get in any good shots. The best route for Bobby would be to try and outlast the Torch in a prolonged fight over hours to tire him out (which begs the question of who starts this fight in the first place).

Really though it depends a whole lot on what the opening shot looks like. Who starts it? Was the other guy caught off guard? Those two factors really would be the most likely ones to decide the fight.



PS: How to read the marvel rpg page links. The power and stat rankings go from feeble to "beyond" in the following order: Feeble(2), Poor(4), Typical(6), Good(10), Excellent(20), Remarkable(30), Incredible(40), Amazing(50), Monstrous(75), Unearthly(100), Shift-X(150), Shift-Y(250), Shift-Z(500), Class-1000(1000), Class-3000(3000), Class-5000(5000), Beyond(infinite). I prefer the marvel rpg pages mostly because they had to qualify a being's abilities in context with all other beings in the marvel universe so as not to be vague. There is a big difference between how smart Galactus is vs. how smart Reed Richards is.

Re: You had to go there.....

[hslayer.livejournal.com]

I had totally forgotten this thread, but having remembered, I also found that same site.

Iceman vs Human Torch.

If it were raw power, like that scene in the movie, Unearthly fire generation will beat Monstrous Ice Generation. Whether Iceman's self-healing would mean he could just keep taking damage indefinitely, I don't know.

A Nova Flame, though, at Shift-Z, would probably put him out of commission.

Re: You had to go there.....

[arcane-the-sage.livejournal.com]

This is what the Galactus conversion of the Human Torch would have looked like: http://www.classicmarvel.com/cast/nova_frankie_raye.htm


Prior to her conversion she had very similar, though slightly weaker, flame powers as Johnny.

Now that I've seen the movie...

[arcfox7.livejournal.com]

I couldn't read your post, for fear of spoilers, until I saw the movie and just thought I'd throw out a couple other comments...

a) I like your idea about mystique remeeting magneto, but something tells me she wouldn't kill him. maybe she would, I don't know why but I think she wouldn't. it would be too simple a revenge for starters.

b)What we thought would happen...they set it up so well to happen, and shocked me they didn't. and they are: Thought about Rogue coming to save the day at the end (and not get cure) stealing phoenix's powers and I don't know... exploding? What about little leech kid? could he have drained phoenix?

c) pissed off that there were only six x-men fighting. 1st off, where's nightcrawler. (yes I know the actor didn't want to do the makeup again- and I understand, but he's one of my favorites). And more than anything, how can this whole series... and I've been pissed off since 2 about this cause I was sure my favorite char would be there..... go without Gambit! also Collusus only getting a little screen time still.


Yes it was jam packed with action, and loved the initial illusion to sentinels...just felt let down by the end.

Re: Now that I've seen the movie...

[trinityvixen.livejournal.com]

Gah, I saw it again last night because my friend got cheap tickets. It's even WORSE the second time around because you know what's going to happen and the suspense being gone means you can pay attention to everything else that's wrong with it. The dialogue is easily some of the worst ever.

I still think Mystique would kill Magneto. As for Leech, no way could he do much. He's never been that powerful. Rogue I think tried to absorb Dark Phoenix in the cartoon and got blasted to blue blazes, with the Phoenix barely scratched (in the comics, Rogue only joined the X-Men after the Phoenix had been destroyed). In short, no one drains the Phoenix. The only ones to exert power over her were the Inner Circle, Xavier, and Cyclops. Way to tell a Phoenix story without any of those, Fox.

I think Alan Cumming probably got himself in a little hot water over his blase loose-lipped gossiping (he, unlike others involved in the production, didn't seem to care what the studio wanted the shooting to be perceived as, and I think he was pretty candid about how Halle Berry was being a total psycho bitch to Bryan Singer). In any event, Fox, that bastion of intelligence that is that studio, decided there couldn't be three blue people in the movie, and I think they wanted Beast more than they wanted Nightcrawler. Plus, they were rushing the thing to get it out before Superman--if Nightcrawler had ever been on board for the sequel, there might have been a conflict.

I heard Josh Holloway (Sawyer on LOST) was supposed to be Gambit, or they approached him about it. He would have been a great Gambit. His smarm as Sawyer is on par with Gambit's swagger. Plus, cute! I'm glad Collusus was back, which is saying a lot because I hate that character in the comics (in the movies, he's been awesome).