The Rabbit Hole

It was all really funny, especially since, not being a slasher either, I read Dean and Sam's reactions to be perfect. (It helps that they, rather reasonably, have the same reaction to incest slash between them as I do.) It was funny, but it was also a little like "EW WHY DO YOU PEOPLE DO THIS ON THE INTERNET?"

But I guess I never thought that the fangirls were, in exchange for a light admonition from the characters, being folded into the new gospel. They're the Paul's Letters to the [fill in the blank]s of this new testament. However, that, too, is a little less than flattering given how restrictive and oppressive (not to mention flagrantly misleading or just plain wrong) Paul could be in his promoting the teachings of a new religion to the far flung heathen peoples...

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newredshoes

Well, if you're Jewish, it's all midrashim, which allows for damn near everything, including having fun. :)

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Again, the things you don't think of when your religious instruction is incomplete.

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viridian.livejournal.com

I lol'ed, but I'm not a slash-writing, RPS-ing fangirl.

>.>

At least, not for this fandom.

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And it is now canon that neither are the Winchesters. That alone ought to break a thousand fangirl hearts, no?

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svilleficrecs.livejournal.com

*shrug* I take it as teasing. And I take it as reasonably in character. The thing about slash is ... it's (by and large) not about characters who are canonically gay. They're just not. Sam and Dean may be very slashy and slashABLE, but as written, in the text, they're pretty clearly put forward as straight brothers.

Yeah, maybe I could plausibly hypothesize about either or both having bi experiences or leanings but Supernatural - as aired - is not about a big gay incestuous love story. That's what fic is for. IMHO, the reaction that Sam and Dean gave with regards to slash fiction was relatively calm and reasonable. These are written as two straight brothers who aren't fucking. I think your average pair of straight brothers who aren't fucking could be expected to be reasonably squicked by the prospect of people they don't know writing about them fucking.

I'd expect them to be squicked by the idea of me writing about them fucking. I'd expect most of the characters (as written in canon) I slash to be either squicked or perplexed or both by the shit I write them doing. I don't see it as a judgement of me (Aaron Sorkin's bullshit felt judgy). I see it as playful, relatively kind hearted, teasing. I think they could have been (reasonably) far more freaked or squicked.

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Like I said, this seems very knowing, which to my mind means they're aware of fandom. They're not just seeing it from the outside. So to me, yes, it does seem teasing, but the very fine line between canon saying "EWW" to fandom versus punch-in-the-arm "Eww!" joking is just that: very fine. I was wondering where the general consensus was because I'm not part of the target demo.

And now I know.

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So far the reactions on my flist there has only been one person who felt the shout-outs were a little mean-spirited. Mostly my small cross-section of the SPN fandom I hang out in is too busy going EEEEEEEEEEE!! There some minor squirming discomfort that holy crap, they're READING FANDOM. But...we already knew this.

My own feeling was yes, those were sharp digs but I didn't feel they were nasty. Because they mocked themselves as much as they mocked the fandom.

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It does seem to be the general opinion that that is the case. I still half wonder if it isn't gratitude and excitement over being, canonically involved that's pardoning the slight more than the slight not being there. It's also funny to me that I'm the one seeing the dig but the target demographic does not. Outside versus in, I believe.

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Some who are in the demographic are seeing the slight (reading more reactions this morning). Most seem to be very, very, rolling-on-the-floor-laughing amused while they wait for the earth to swallow them.

Which was my reaction--I don't write wincest but there was enough other stuff on-point to make *me* squirm...

I dunno...I didn't read it as a slight. I mean yes, they were mocking, but not in a condemning way. Yanking our chain and having their fun.

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It does seem like they took care to get it right, which probably helps. People don't mock half so well when they don't do their research. It does not always imply love (see Tina Fey), but there is a certain respect if nothing else. So even if the show is tut-tutting, it isn't saying "Stop that" either. Sam and Dean are saying "STOP THAT," but not so much the show.

I wonder if the actors are as much aware of this as the rest of the creative team? I suppose it would be hard to avoid for any internet savvy person, but the slash stuff? I wonder. I don't think I'd go near fanfic for anything I was working on, knowing the internet like I do, but I don't know that everyone has enough forewarning to do so...

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I wonder if the actors are as much aware of this as the rest of the creative team?
Oh, they're aware. Fans have made them aware. Poor Misha actually said at the last con he wanted to learn more about slash. He's going to get sent so much eyeball melting stuff because of that.

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I'm actually less worried about what this show says the showrunners think about wincest (read--I don't actually care. I don't think it's possible to write fanfic for anything and really care about the showrunners' opinions of it), than I am about what this will do to fandom. Because whether or not the show meant it as mean-spirited, you know this is going to kick off a round of gen writers flaming wincest writers.

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Hush, don't give anyone any ideas. *looks around nervously*

I mean, it crossed my mind. Gen writers could claim that it disgusts Dean, clearly Sam and Dean are not doing it, therefore it's not canon and argue people shouldn't write it.

That will be when I fall off my chair laughing (again). Because uh...since when has "not!canon" ever been a good reason to not write something?

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I have like three minutes before I have to leave for ICON, but as I think about this, I'm not happy about the wincest call-out. I don't mind the showrunners knowing about it or mentioning it, but, like many slash writers, I'm very careful who I let know about it. I feel like slash is the sort of thing that anyone who's in any way engaged with online fan communities or goes to cons knows about, but that's still not the majority of viewers. So putting it in the show brings it to the attention of all the viewers who don't know about it--and it feels like flashing them my underwear drawer. Cause if they weren't involved online enough to know about it, then they probably disapprove, and I don't actually want them to know about it. Does that make sense?

I just get this feeling of a whole new set of people being disgusted by my fandom.

This could also be because I'm about to go to ICON, where I have previously faced serious hatred of slash. And this mention just feels like the showrunners handing them a loaded gun to point at me.

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I just get this feeling of a whole new set of people being disgusted by my fandom.

Which is why I asked the question in the first place. Because while I see it as a point for humor, I could see how negative this commentary could be as well. It plays to, as you've pointed out, one segment of fans over the other--it's put an "eww!" face on the slashers. Canonically. Now, that can be a teasing from the show runners, but people who are not those people won't necessarily see it that way. I'm not, clearly, seeing that way. Not entirely.

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The view within fandom seems to be split, now, between those who thought it was affectionate, those who thought it was affectionate but won't look good to the general public, and those who thought the showrunners were taking a nastier jab at fanfic (and it looks bad to the general public).

My original thinking had been concerned with the view from within--are the showrunners really being nasty to fandom, y/n. (My opinion is no). But there is a real question of what this means with millions of viewers who have no idea what fandom is and how they'd react.

But I don't think SPN shouldn't have done it. If anything, it's a step towards making fanfic more socially acceptable. Since you first have to make people aware of something in order to get them to accept it.

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This episode also put an ew! face on romance novels as a whole--and that's something I know a lot of romance readers feel very sensitive about. But romance is a widely known genre. Slash is not. For a lot of people, this is the first time they've heard of it, and gently as it was meant, that first time is the characters in a show they like pointing it out specifically for ridicule.

I did laugh, I'll admit. (I should also point out that, even though this is "canonical anti-wincest," it's pretty damn easy to use it to justify wincest.) But I'm really uncomfortable with show runners talking about slash in interviews, let alone on the show. I really prefer just to be left alone. Especially when the group pointing and laughing has a huge platform and those being pointed at have...no platform at all.

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It's an anti-romance novel statement? Why? Just because of the ::snerk:: cover?

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No, the editor makes some comment about how all people want these days are those awful romances. Don't remember it exactly.

They also called out LARPers in this. I wonder if there's any reaction to that--though LARPing is a bit more well known, and honestly, the LARPers have got to just be used to it by now.

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That totally makes sense. I mean, I'd think it was funny even if the shout-out was to my slash ship (sadly, Chuck hadn't had the books published that far out yet, heh) but I can also see the major squirm factor, the practical problems of having attention drawn to it.

But then...my general sense about fanfic is that under the radar is the best policy. This was...above the radar. This was a big flashing neon sign going SLASHFIC HERE.

Hatred of slash at ICON? You'll have to fill me in on that sometime. Wow.

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Because ivy03 will murder me if I don't...
You're right, I would have. :)

I pretty much don't like it when shows go meta, in general, because it's a bit like the watching the writers beat off. In this case, they had a pretty good in show reason for it. As to how the way they treat fans...I don't like being called out in a show, positive or negative, but I don't really expect showrunners to have a better opinion of fans than that. I've read con reports. At the last con, somebody tried to get a security guard to through out Jensen's girlfriend. So it's not like they have reason to like us.

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